Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 181

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    I need it immediately. Crystal Brown is going to
 1file at all, it is full of completely different documents,
 2which he then describes. There may be an innocent
 3explanation for this but I would ask, before being
 4questioned about this document as I understand the defence
 5wish to, that I should be apprised as to where the
 6original is and, if possible, shown a facsimile.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had evidence about that, but I am
 8afraid it is not in my mind at the moment. I think it is
 9been around for a long time, the Muller document, has it
10not?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is mentioned in a book, at least this
12I know, by Professor Gerald Fleming, called Hitler und die
13Entlosung. It is a German book which has also been
14translated.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is right.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It was published in 1982. I have Mr Irving's copy
17which he kindly gave me.
18 MR IRVING:     Loaned you.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, of course. I have no intention permanently
20to deprive Mr Irving. The point is this, not what the
21authenticity of the document might be, but that it is in a
22book which Mr Irving has, and that is what I shall be
23cross-examining him about. I am not going back to
24history.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but he can rely on this letter.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It does not seem that it is now in a particular

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 1archive.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the file where you would expect to find
 3it does not contain it.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     The reference may be wrong, I do not know. I will
 5try and track it down. It is a different point. I am not
 6going to cross-examine him about that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is all of this little clip connected with
 8Muller?
 9 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. The final document in that little
10clip is actually a press report of 1983 in which Fleming
11refers to that very document. I include it purely because
12I found it by accident last night in my files. I would
13certainly rely on this little episode as being further
14proof of the negligence of the historians adduced as
15expert witnesses by the Defence in this case.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we know where Fleming got the document
17from?
18 MR IRVING:     No.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is he still ----
20 MR IRVING:     He is still extant.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- alive and well?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes. I spoke to him a few days ago. He never
23wrote about it in a letter to me in his considerable
24correspondence which I searched.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will leave this clip on one side.
26 MR IRVING:     We will be coming back to it in the course of the

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 1cross-examination of Professor Evans, my Lord.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I have some photographs of Winnona
 3Brown.
 4 MR IRVING:     We do not need them until halfway down the
 5cross-examination of Professor Evans when we get the
 6little ditty.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Any more?
 8 MR IRVING:     That is my only submission.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship again has probably got something
11I have not. I knew what the first part of this exchange
12was about, because I know what the document is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not got any photographs?
14 MR RAMPTON:     I have no photographs.
15 MR IRVING:     Miss Rogers is sitting on everything.
16 MR RAMPTON:     May I enquire through your Lordship where the
17correspondence is with the Bundesarchives, or whatever it
18is?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have a clip which I think you have
20headed "from Monday August 23rd".
21 MR RAMPTON:     We will sort it out later. I do not want to waste
22time.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. Now shall we have Professor Evans?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
25     < Professor Evans, sworn.
26     < Examined by Mr Rampton QC.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Professor Evans, first of all, your full names please?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Richard John Evans.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you made a report, a long report, for these
 4proceedings?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you made some corrections to it?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     More recently, have you answered some questions in writing
 9from Mr Irving?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as those documents contain statements of fact, are
12you as satisfied as you can be that they are accurate?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are you
15satisfied that those opinions are fair?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Would you remain there to be cross-examined.
18     < Cross-examined by Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Good morning, Professor Evans.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Good morning.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I intend this morning to try and deal with
22matters generally, particularly some of the matters that
23are large in recent public coverage of this case and try
24and dispose of them, and then go seriatim through
25particular points which are contained in his expert
26report. I shall also try to bring in the reports of those

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 1witnesses who are not going to be cross-examined or
 2presenting themselves for cross-examination and test your
 3Lordship's patience in that respect, and have to use this
 4cross-examination or the cross-examination of Professor
 5Longerich as a vehicle for introducing certain documents?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We have discussed that already and that
 7is something that you are perfectly entitled to do. But
 8do bear in mind, if I may say it again, that it is
 9important that I can follow it, preferably by reference to
10the documents.
11 MR IRVING:     By reference to the documents, yes.
12     Professor Evans, first of all, we learned
13yesterday from Professor Browning, rather to my surprise
14that he is effectively in the pay of the Yad Vashim
15Institute, that he received 35,000 dollars from them for a
16task which he has not completed, so he is in their debt.
17Can you assure the court that you are not also in some way
18indebted to the Yad Vashim Institute or to any similar
19body?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends rather what you mean by "any similar body".
21I am certainly not in debt to anybody, as far as I know.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the significance being of course that Yad Vashim was
23the body which commissioned the work which is complained
24of in this action.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have never had any dealings with the Yad Vashim
26Institute of any description.

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