Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 181

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 1 MR IRVING:     Would it be helpful if I passed on to the next
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was going to suggest that. They have found
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Page 31, my Lord, third paragraph at the bottom of
 6the page.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. Page 31 in the stamp at
 8the bottom of the page.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 MR IRVING:     It begins, does it not, "I have spent 30 years now
11working in the archives in London, in Washington and
12Moscow, in short around the world. If I express an
13opinion, it is properly a reasonably accurate opinion
14which I have arrived at over a period of years", and then
15you have left something out. Can you tell us what has
16been left out?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Without fear or favour to either side and certainly
18not as a result of being bribed or corrupted or
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     "In researching Hitler" does it then continue?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is a confusion. The "researching Hitler" bit
24is a different footnote. It is footnote 6.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I realise that, because it comes after the
26little (v). That is obviously right, Mr Irving.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Now we are back to Hitler's War again.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I omitted that because I do not think you have been bribed
 3or corrupted or intimidated.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I am waiting for my bag of pure gold. I do not
 6 MR IRVING:     Gold with a capital G I think is going to come now
 7beyond (ii) of the 1977 Hitler's war. In fact, you are
 8going to dislike me over this because, although the
 9footnote says it is the 1977 edition, my Lord ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It might be 1991.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the 1991 edition and it is pages 6 to 7.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in fact I think 7 to 8, not 6 to 7, so you are wrong
13there too.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Come on.
15 MR IRVING:     Can we begin with the middle? "For the few
16autobiographical works I have used, I prefer to rely on
17the original manuscripts rather than the printed texts as
18in the early postwar years apprehensive publishers,
19especially the licensed ones in Germany, made drastic
20changes in them", and then you have left out a bit?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. For example, there is a lot of detail there which is
22not really of any concern to me.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then you continue "But historians".
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What you are saying is that everything you left out is a
26lot of detail which is not of concern to you?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, to borrow your own phrase, I did not want to
 2fill my report with acres of sludge.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Although it provides verisimilitude to the allegation?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not disputing it here. I am trying to present your
 5own point of view here as succinctly as I can.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did your Lordship identify the passage left out?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes I did. It is the sort of point you need
 8not labour. I understand what the point is.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If it helps, I quite accept that you have identified the
10forgeries and falsifications. I am not disputing that at
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not so that on these two pages, pages 30 to 31 of
13your expert report, you rather pour cold water, cold
14douche, on the idea that I have succeeded in spotting
15source document after source document, particularly in the
16form of diaries or alleged diaries which turn out to have
17been phoney or prettified up?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where do I do that?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 233, and I will read it out while you are
20going back to it. "(Irving) listed a whole variety of
21diaries and other sources on which he claimed -- without
22any references to back his assertion up, however --
23previous historians had relied ...." Now of course you
24see the point why I am irritated that you left out the
25detail I had put in which you chopped out, because you
26said it did not concern you.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not disputing this at all. What I am really writing
 2about here is your claim that other historians, reading on
 3in the paragraph, your "idle predecessors" had failed to
 4detect them each successive biographer has repeated or
 5engrossed the legends, historians have never troubled to
 6consult basic documentation, and so on. That is what the
 7issue is here. I am not disputing at all that you have
 8identified ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     There are numbers of diaries floating around which are
10still broadly quoted by the great historians, even
11somebody as reputable as Andreas Hilgruber has relied on
12the Engel diary for example?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I thought you did not read the work of other historians,
14Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am very familiar with what Andreas Hilgruber has written
16in the criticisms of his work in this respect.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So you do read other historians.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, may I make a suggestion
19because we are going to be here a very, very long time.
20It is really is best not to argue, as it were. It is
21tempting, I know.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord, the point I am trying to make in this passage is
23not that Mr Irving has not discovered falsifications and
24forgeries. I accept that absolutely. The point I am
25trying to make here is that, without any references or
26support, in any references to documents or other

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 1historians' work, he is levelling unjust accusations at
 2other historians. That is the nub of this paragraph.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You go on to then criticise him for not bothering to visit
 4so and so.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, my Lord, no, I do not. I am saying that he
 6has accused other historians of not bothering to visit.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are right to correct me.
 8 MR IRVING:     Was that criticism by me justified that other
 9historians failed to visit these people?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have not provided any documentation of this
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, do I not in the introduction to my book Hitler's War
13draw specific reference to the widow of Walter Havel, the
14widow of Anst von Bisecker, who was the mother of the
15later president of Germany, who all provided their private
16papers and diaries to me of their late husbands?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not dispute that they have provided you with
18material, Mr Irving. I am not disputing that at all.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     These are specific examples of widows who had not been
20visited by these lazy German historians. I am not
21inventing this, am I?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But you have not provided any support of the accusation
23that later historians have repeated or engrossed the
24legends created by their predecessors and so on and so
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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