Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 181

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    It is not intended as criticism. I am not night trying to
 1make the point that you do not produce any others. That
 2is not what I am arguing about.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the way you have written it implies that I only print
 4or reproduce or publish materials that are congenial to
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it does not. I am sorry. Let me read the sentence:
 7"The is", it is the website I am referring to, "This is
 8constantly changing, but it includes lengthy documents and
 9analyses produced or reproduced by Irving himself, as well
10as by others whose views are congenial to him." That
11follows a sentence saying he has also made his views in a
12variety of, and so on, a frequent writer of letters to
13newspapers, all these books, that is all I am trying to
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where do you say in that paragraph that I also include the
16views of those which are diametrically opposed to me?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not relevant to what I am saying there. What I am
18saying there is that there is a lot of material on which
19to base an assessment of your work. All I am saying there
20is that your website is part of the basis on which it is
21possible to assess your work.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate that running a website costs a lot of
23money. Is there any reason why I should put material
24which is opposed to my viewpoint unless I was scrupulously
25fair in everything I do in public life? In other words,
26the exact opposite of what you described earlier in your

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 1report as being unscrupulous and manipulative and
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I put it this way, so we can perhaps move
 4on. Would you agree that it is credible that Mr Irving
 5puts on his Internet website material which is opposed to
 6him, such as your report?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course. Obviously it is in the interests of
 8getting more users for the website to give to do that kind
 9of thing. I do not dispute that at all. I am not
10criticising you at all.
11 MR IRVING:     Moving on now to qualifications which is 2.2.1.
12You quite rightly say that in all the examinations I took
13at school history was the only subject I flunked?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do say that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that one of your lighter remarks rather in the vein of
16the thing in the pornographic section?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I just thought it was a nice quote.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact you have four 'A' levels and I have nine. So how
19does this shape itself?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know how many years. Did you do them all at
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I kept on plugging away. If we now continue to where,
23looking at whether you have to be an historian to be an
24historian, so to speak?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your view, do you have to be an academic historian? Do

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 1you have to have degrees to be able to write history?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I say so here that this is not, I think, a
 3particularly strong powerful criticism. The work has to
 4be assessed on its merits. There are, as I say, any
 5number of ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very reputable historians?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- Reputable historians who do not have formal academic
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     People like Walter Laqueur?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or Tony Fraser, many people. We are all agreed on that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are all agreed about this, so we can pass
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the point I am making is that paragraph
142.2.2 in the second line, having made that point and very
15generously saying there is a good deal to say for this
16argument, he then goes on to say: "As he suggests in the
17above passage, he has no academic as an historian".
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Then I go on to say in the next sentence: "Although these
19are serious initial disadvantages for becoming a
20professional historian, there are plenty of examples of
21reputable and successful historians whose lack of formal
22academic qualifications is as striking as Irving's." So I
23am agreeing with you.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sometimes your bias does come through, does it not? If
25you go to the first line of the next paragraph, 2.3.2:
26"Irving tells anyone willing to listen that he is an

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 1expert historian". That is a bit of a sneer there, is it
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would be happy to withdraw that if you think it is a
 4sneer. It is nothing to do with your academic
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     When we are talking of withdrawing things, later on, on
 7line 4 of that paragraph, you have withdrawn quite a lot,
 8have not, where you put the three dots?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me have a look.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you have a look, please, at the 1977 edition of my
11book Hitler's War? Do you have it, my Lord?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it.
13 MR IRVING:     Line 4. We will see exactly what you have left
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I have it here.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It can be provided. It is the introduction.
17 MR IRVING:     Page xii.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not have xii here.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a bundle which does not have the
20introduction. Can you find one which does.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It has the introduction.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is where it is, xii.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. There are different editions of this book, my Lord.
24I think that is the problem.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but you have the 1977 edition?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have it.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I am terribly sorry, we are looking at the wrong
 2thing. It is footnote five we should be looking at and it
 3is the speech in Victoria.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am terribly sorry.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Start again.
 7 MR IRVING:     I have written in the margin "Pure Gold" so I think
 8it is going to be worth looking at. I have said: "What
 9is omitted? Pure gold, read it out". This is a speech,
10is it not, that I made in Victoria on October 28th 1992 on
11the subject of freedom of speech, having been just awarded
12the George Orwell Freedom of Speech prize and shortly
13before I was taken off by eight Mounted Policemen in
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can the Defendants side produce a reference
16for this?
17 MR RAMPTON:     I am just trying.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very kind.
19 MR RAMPTON:     H1 (i), tab blank, page 29.
20 MR IRVING:     You have made two omissions, have you not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you point me to the page?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 29, yellow tab.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which is the page on which this statement occurs? .
24 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, my Lord. I should have come better
25prepared with the actual missing passages available.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is unusual that you are not.

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