Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 181

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    In other words, you do accept that I have never
 1written an article for the Journal of Historical Review,
 2it is however correct that they have published transcripts
 3in the way that learned journals also do of people's talks
 4and lectures?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that the Journal of Historical Review is a
 6learned journal.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not say so, of course.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But I would have thought that they would have obtained
 9your permission to put the transcripts there and that you
10would have had the opportunity to revise them before they
11went in there, and that therefore you were agreeable to
12their appearing there as articles.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. On page 17 you refer to various bones of contention
14that you are going to pick in the first paragraph, the
15fourth line, to Irving's use of the evidence of Hitler's
16Adjutants. Undoubtedly I am going to be cross-examined on
17this matter, I believe so. I do not really want to go
18into very much detail about that until we come to it in
19the appropriate part of your report, but you do attach
20great importance to the fact, do you not, that you think
21I made a wrong use of what these members of Hitler's
22private staff told me?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that you are going to be
24cross-examined because my understanding is that----
25 MR RAMPTON:     I said that on the whole I did not think it
26terribly likely, but I did say, if I was going to, I would

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 1mention it. There may be just a couple of points.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought I could short circuit this.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am certainly not going to do it at any length
 4because I do not believe I need to.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are right, Mr Irving, it is part of the
 6case. I thought it was not but it is.
 7 MR IRVING:     It appears to be in a kind of limbo where it might
 8be sprung on me at a later date. When we come to that
 9point in Professor Evans' expert report, than in that case
10I shall have to deal with it seriatim. Can I address your
11attention to page 19 of your report, Professor Evans?
12Half way down the page, at the end of that paragraph,
13paragraph 161, you conclude by saying: "We have not
14suppressed any occasion on which Irving has used accepted
15and legitimate methods of historical research, exposition
16and interpretation. There were none." That is a very
17sweeping statement it make, is it not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I should qualify that by saying there wee none in
19the material we examined.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     None at all? I have never used historical material in the
21proper manner?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in the material we examined, no.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I can see his Lordship frowning.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just puzzled by that. What material did
25you examine? It seems to me you cannot have known what to
26go to unless you have looked at the whole lot.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the cases that we examined. I explain in the
 2introduction to this report. Clearly we had 18 months to
 3go through 30 years' of Mr Irving's work and so it was not
 4possible to go through the whole lot in its entirety. So
 5we had to be selective. I explain in the report the
 6principles on which we selected the material, which was
 7not going for the weak points but trying to go for his
 8strongest arguments, and in those areas we did not find
 9occasions where he used accepted and legitimate methods of
10historical research, exposition and interpretation, taking
11the three things together as a whole.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is a bit tortuous because really what you are saying is
13that the areas you have selected for criticism are not
14areas where you would praise Mr Irving?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that is right, though I did not know that in advance.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Who told you which passages to go for, as it were?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. Well, that is to say, as I explain here, I decided
18obviously to look at the question of Holocaust denial and
19whether it was legitimate to ----
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see, topics as broad as that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- accuse Mr Irving of Holocaust denial. Then I decided
22to look at what he himself describes as the chain of
23documents which show that, in his view, Hitler was, as he
24says somewhere, the best friend the Jews ever had in the
25Third Reich. So we looked at as many of those as we
26could, all of the ones we could find, and in all of those

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 1we found the same thing, that is to say, where there were
 2distortions, suppressions and manipulations. That is what
 3I am saying there.
 4 MR IRVING:     We are going to come to the next paragraph, but in
 5retrospect would you wish that you had phrased that final
 6sentence less globally and less grandly, saying there were
 7none, which implies that nowhere in my entire writings
 8have I have used historical documents properly?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I did not find that in what I looked at.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Never once I did use a historical document correctly?
11Never once did I use material that had been before me? In
12all the records and books that you examined and we are
13going to see in a few pages time which books you did
14examine.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. By occasion, I mean of course the topics that we
16examined. No doubt, if you say that Hitler was born on
17such and such a date in such and such a year, that is a
18correct statement.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not what you are saying. I will repeat it again,
20"We have not suppressed any occasion on which Irving has
21used accepted and legitimate methods of historical
22research, exposition, interpretation. There were none."
23You are referring to my entire corpus of writing.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes, and I am following on the statements in the
25previous paragraphs and pages where I describe the methods
26used to draw up the report, and the word "occasion" there

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 1refers to the various topics that we looked at, which are
 2outlined in the previous paragraphs.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I would not want to rewrite your report. What you should
 4therefore written surely was----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sure you would.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- not "there were none" but "there were none in the few
 7instances that we examined". Is that you are trying to
 8say?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not accept that there were few instances.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Three instances, Reichskristallnacht, Dresden and the
11Adjutants. Is that correct?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not correct at all, Mr Irving. We examined a
13great many other instances.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But then you continue in the next paragraph of course,
15then comes the purple prose as to what you alleged to have
16found swimming around in this cesspit of David Irving's
17writings. "I was not prepared", you write, "for the sheer
18depth of duplicity, his numerous mistakes, that is the
19bottom line but one, and the egregrious errors". On the
20contrary, "they were not accidental", you say, on the
21contrary, it is obvious that they were calculated and
22deliberate. Now, do you still stand by this assessment?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Most certainly, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     In all my writings? Or are you just referring to these
25few passages that you are being specific about?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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