Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 181 of 181
1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 10th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company,Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY EIGHTEEN
1 <Day 18 Thursday, 10th February 2000.
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: May it please the court. Two or three minor
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 MR IRVING: Your Lordship requested yesterday or the day before
7yesterday, you expressed an interest in that remark by
8Hans Frank at the Nuremberg trial where he said that he
9had discussed it with the Fuhrer on February 2nd 1944.
10Your Lordship said you would like to see the passage
11concerned. That is the top document in the heap which
12I have left your Lordship there.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
14 MR IRVING: In order that your Lordship can see the passage
15concerned, I have put it into bold face, and it is about
1610 pages in, I think. It is easier to find -- it is three
17pages from the end, my Lord.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
19 MR RAMPTON: Maybe your Lordship has something I have not.
20 MR IRVING: It is there.
21 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is in bold.
23 MR IRVING: I have put in bold, that particular passage. The
24entire document is of interest and it may well be that
25Mr Rampton will wish to ask questions about it. It is
26Hans Frank, who is the Governor General, which is not
1where Auschwitz was situated, of course, the Governor
2General, but he is relating his own experiences and how he
3learned, first of all, of the rumours from radio
4broadcasts, which may seem extraordinary and how he then
5went to discuss them with Hitler.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
7 MR IRVING: The second point is ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry to interrupt you, but where shall we
10 MR IRVING: Miss Rogers will, undoubtedly, have a suggestion to
11make of a proper nature.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. She is in charge.
13 MR RAMPTON: Probably in the J file somewhere or other. At the
14back of tab 7 of L1(iv) for the present.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Hang on, this is, in effect, an Auschwitz
17 MR IRVING: It is.
18 MR RAMPTON: Is it?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we do not want to put it in a ----
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not think it is an Auschwitz document.
21 MR IRVING: It is. It goes to Auschwitz and Hitler's knowledge
22of Auschwitz. It is actually the question of the final
23link. Your Lordship may read this document either way, of
24course. You may hold it against me, in fact, that Frank
25is discussing this with Hitler.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to try to absorb it now
1because it maybe you will want to pick this up with
3 MR RAMPTON: It is Hitler knowledge, really, because it
4reflects back on the suggestion that Frank was told by
6 MR IRVING: I agree.
7 MR RAMPTON: --- or one of Hitler's people on 12th December
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you stick with L as being the appropriate
11 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I would stick with L for the moment. L1, tab
128, I am now told.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of 8, you are saying?
14 MR RAMPTON: If there is a tab 8.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know we are taking time on this, but it is
16really important that one has the documents in some sort
17of order. Yes, Mr Irving. Next one?
18 MR IRVING: The next point is that yesterday evening at about
198.30 p.m. there was delivered to me by courier from the
20Defendants a very large bundle of papers once again for
21which Mr Rampton would say, I attach no blame
22whatsoever to the other parties; obviously, this is an
23action where that kind of thing happens.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not so sure about that, but I will
25guard my tongue at the moment.
26 MR IRVING: Basically, it was answers to questions which I
1had asked of today's witness, Professor Evans, on January
22nd and January 3rd this year, around about that date, and
3here we are five weeks later; they have now delivered a
4response of probably 150, something like that, pages.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry. You say you asked questions of
6Professor Evans on a previous occasion?
7 MR RAMPTON: Written questions.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen that.
9 MR RAMPTON: It is perfectly all right within the rules.
10 MR IRVING: Within the rules and with the aim of speeding
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen the product of
14 MR IRVING: Well, the product was delivered to me last night.
15It covers really the first 200 pages of his expert report
16which means I cannot today address myself specifically to
17those pages of his report. It would be a nonsense.
18 MR RAMPTON: That is perfectly reasonable. In fact, the
19answers run only to six pages, I think.
20 MR IRVING: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: The rest is what you might call supporting
23 MR IRVING: Very well.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But why has this come ----
25 MR RAMPTON: Because Professor ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- within hours of Professor Evans getting
1into the witness box.
2 MR RAMPTON: Because Professor Evans is a busy man and he has
3only just answered them. I cannot answer them for him.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that, of course, I understand.
5 MR IRVING: I make no criticism of that, my Lord. Obviously,
6we both have our professional lives to lead, but for this
7reason it would be pointless for me to cross-examine him
8on those pages as I certainly shall.
9 MR RAMPTON: That I accept.
10 MR IRVING: Because he may very well have answered the matters
11in the meantime. But today I was going to discuss more
12general matters with him. We were going to set the scene
13as far as we possibly can.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but may I just say something about your
15cross-examination? I have spent many hours, to put it no
16higher, on day 16 and day 17 which is, basically, your
17cross-examination of Professor Browning.
18 MR IRVING: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your questions, if I may say so, are clear,
20almost always to the point, but what I would find helpful
21is if you would usually make a point of, if you can,
22directing me to the document that you are cross-examining
23on, or invite the Defendants to direct me to the document
24you are cross-examining on, because you probably
25understand when I go through the transcript (and I am much
26less knowledgeable than you and, indeed, than the
1Defendants), I do not always find it very easy to follow
2the drift of the questioning unless I know what the
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I will certainly do so in the written text
5of my summing up which I shall deliver to your Lordship as
6a written document as well as spoken.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But, remember, I am trying to follow this and
8digest it as we go along from the transcript so that if
9you can ----
10 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will have noticed a disparity ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- accommodate?
12 MR IRVING: --- of effort between the man power on the Defence
13side and the man power on the Claimants' side of this
14case, and I do what I can.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. I am really inviting the Defendants
16to come to my assistance during your cross-examination.
17The trouble is -- I have said it before, I will say it
18again -- that the documents on certain aspects of this
19case are scattered amongst different files, mostly
20untranslated, and it does not make life any easier. I say
21that with some feeling.
22 MR RAMPTON: I am not sure if I see that as a rebuke or not.
23It is a fact of life, however. To make your Lordship's
24task easier because, after all, at the end of the case
25your Lordship is going to have a write a judgment, we will
26perhaps, as it were, in conference in open court with your
1Lordship try to put together -- we have for some subjects
2already done it, we did it for Reichskristallnacht, we
3have done it for Dresden and some other things.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are fine, those two topics.
5 MR RAMPTON: But there are, obviously, a number of key
6documents which your Lordship rightly says and,
7unsurprisingly, since the bundles have not been agreed in
8the usual way, but are simply the experts' references,
9they are scattered all over the place, we need to draw
10them together. When we have done that, I think we need
11some help from your Lordship about which ones you would
12like us to translate.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I agree with all of that, but just
14looking ahead, for example on Longerich -- it is too late
15on Professor Evans and it may not be a problem with Evans
16-- it would be helpful to perhaps, prepare, a little
17bundle in advance.
18 MR RAMPTON: I agree, yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be you have done all this already, but
20if you have not, do you think that could be considered?
21 MR RAMPTON: My working is different. I have taken all the
22documents already from different experts for use in
23cross-examination, which is a slightly different exercise.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I will have to leave it to you, but
25bear in mind I am not rebuking so much as just expressing
26a real problem.
1 MR RAMPTON: I understand it as a plea for help.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In a way, it is exactly that.
3 MR RAMPTON: Which I fully understand. So what we will try to
4do, if we can, is get a Longerich bundle together, but it
5may well include some documents from other places.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, there are some other
7documents here. Should I look at those now or are they
9 MR IRVING: No. I will draw your attention to them when the
10time comes, but I am going to draw your attention or
11remind your Lordship of what we call the Kinna document,
12K-I-N-N-A, which was a late arrival. I am almost tempted
13to say it is a glamorous arrival. It arrived late from an
14anonymous source, your Lordship will remember, and your
15Lordship asked the Defence to take two weeks to find out
16where it came from. They have know provided that
17information to me last night.
18 It is a document which I regard as suspect
19inasmuch as it comes from a 1960's Polish publication,
20what we would call a blue book and the Germans a white
21book an the Nazis a brown book, I suppose, or the East
22Germans. It is that kind of publication. I make no
23criticism of that. I am not going to attack the integrity
24of the document because I am not in position to. But they
25have also produced in support of the document the
26testimony of the man who signed it, as I understand it
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we first of all go to this document?
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord. It was, I think produced ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I remember it.
5 MR RAMPTON: -- during the course of -- I am going to hand it
7 MR IRVING: I am not going to deal with the contents of the
8document. I understand I will be cross-examined on it.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but if you are saying about it, I want to
10look at it so I know what you are talking about.
11 MR RAMPTON: There was a translation at some time. I do not
12know where that has got to. It is a report from a place
13called Zanosk which is in Poland of 16th December 1942
14about the transport of some 644 Poles to Auschwitz. It
15has a real significance so far as, indeed, not just
16Auschwitz, but the Holocaust as a whole, in its second
17paragraph on page 2, which somebody, might be the source,
18has put a line beside, and the question was really this
19for the moment, what authenticity does it have?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember.
21 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving was worried about that. We now know
22that it was reprinted as a facsimile in a Polish book in
231960, which is produced by the Warsaw archive which is, no
24doubt, where it is, also again in 1979 and then the last
25document where it was translated from German into Polish,
26and in the last document is the testimony man Kinna
1himself which I think he gave on 2nd July 1964.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Kinna the signatory of the document?
3 MR RAMPTON: He is the man who wrote the report, yes. Although
4I cannot possibly read it, I am your Lordship cannot
5either, maybe Mr Irving can, these are the handwritten
6notes of the hearing. What, in effect, we are told they
7do is to show that Kinna himself verified the contents of
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In what context?
10 MR RAMPTON: He was a witness at a trial.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He was a witness as a prosecution of a ----
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes, so I understood, at Frankfurt. The last
13document in this little clip is, I think, not connected.
14It is a letter, I think, from Hans Frank to Heinrich
15Himmler dated 23rd June 1942.
16 MR IRVING: It is from Viktor Brach.
17 MR RAMPTON: You are quite right. It is in the top lefthand
18corner, but I do not know what it says because I have not
19read it yet.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
21 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I revert to the submission I was
22making about the Kinna document?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, absolutely. That is what we are on now.
24 MR IRVING: I am not going to challenge the integrity of the
25document because I am not in a position to do so, but I am
26going to deal with that handwritten document which your
1Lordship was just looking at which was the 1963 trial
2where Kinna was asked about the document. I have
3deciphered the handwriting at the end I will translate it
4very rapidly: "Says the witness Kinna" ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Pause. I have not got there yet.
6 MR IRVING: It has a number of numbers on it, and it has an
7upside down page 11 at the top left-hand side corner. The
8final paragraph, the final two paragraphs, translate as
9follows: "The witness Kinna confirmed the accuracy of the
10report. He answered the questions put to him by the
11lawyer Professor Dr Kaul". K-A-U-L.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am so sorry.
13 MR RAMPTON: My Lord I am sorry, the clip has not been
14paginated which is annoying. It is the second of two ----
15 MR IRVING: Two handwritten pages.
16 MR RAMPTON: --- handwritten page. It has a fax page 10 in the
17top righthand corner.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it. I cannot see the upside-down 11.
19 MR RAMPTON: You do not have to struggle with that.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, sorry, Mr Irving?
21 MR IRVING: I will repeat it. "The witness Kinna confirmed the
22accuracy of the report". This is two paragraphs from the
23bottom, "The witness Kinna" ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.
25 MR IRVING: --- "confirmed the accuracy of the report. He
26answered the questions put to him, the expanding
1questions, the amplifying questions, put to him by the
2lawyer Professor Dr Kaul. To the correction of the
3witness, no further motions were put", or it could be
4either "correction" or on the swearing of the witness, but
5that is unimportant. What concerns me is the final
6paragraph: "The witness was sworn in, and in agreement
7with both parties he was released".
8 I shall draw attention to that. I do not think
9this is a proper time to draw attention. The significance
10is the fact that this witness, to what is obviously a
11criminal document, is questioned only as to the accuracy
12of the document and is then released by all the parties,
13including the public prosecutor.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not saying you are wrong about
15that. My reaction to it would be that that is simply what
16happens when a witness is finished giving his evidence.
17 MR IRVING: Yes, except that, since your Lordship has put it
18that way, I would comment on the remarkable fact that here
19is a man who has obviously been engaged in a criminal
20undertaking who could possibly have struck a bargain,
21shall I put it like that, that if he will testify to the
22accuracy of the document, then no further charges will be
23laid against him.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So your position on what we are calling the
25Kinna report is that, yes, it is an authentic document.
26 MR IRVING: For the purposes of this trial, my Lord.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you query whether it was not the product
2of a plea bargain.
3 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not challenging the integrity of the
4document. I cannot because I do not have sufficient
5apparatus to challenge it. Having read the document, I do
6not think it seriously damages my position in this case.
7So, for the purpose of the case, I am going to ask
8questions on its contents as though it were genuine.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Again I ask where shall we put this?
10 MR RAMPTON: This is an Auschwitz document. I suggest it goes
11in tab 4 of K2.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
13 MR RAMPTON: Chronologically, we will have declip it and sort
14it out. I suggest it goes as a lump in wherever the date
15is, 16.12.42. I cannot help on that because I have not
16got my K2 here.
17 MR IRVING: The final problem, my Lord ----
18 MR RAMPTON: Can I just finish? I am sorry, I am not trying to
19be discourteous. I do have a translation as well of the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
22 MR RAMPTON: There is one for the judge and one for Mr Irving.
23He ought to see that in case he does not agree with it.
25 MR IRVING: My Lord the fourth matter concerns the document
26which you are familiar with, which is August 1st 1941 from
1Muller to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs about which we spent
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And about the authenticity of it.
4 MR IRVING: A serious problem has arisen because I contacted
5the West German archives, your Lordship will see that the
6second page of that little bundle I gave you, the bundle
7beginning with the words "from Monday", the second page of
8that is headed "translation", does your Lordship have the
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR IRVING: A letter from me on February 7th this year to the
12German Federal Archives saying, this is a translation:
13There is a big trial in London. I need an original copy
14of the following document. I give the reference number
15which is given by our witnesses in their bundles.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17 MR IRVING: I need it immediately. Crystal Brown is going to
18be for the next three days only in the witness box. Could
19you please fax the documents, we need them in facsimile.
20I attach importance if possible to seeing the original
21documents rather than printed versions, as your Lordship
22appreciates. They replied to me yesterday, saying that
23document is not in the file. And to clarify any
24ambiguities as to what that letter meant, I spoke with
25Dr Lens yesterday of the German Federal Archives in Berlin
26and he said, yes, that means this document is not in the
1file at all, it is full of completely different documents,
2which he then describes. There may be an innocent
3explanation for this but I would ask, before being
4questioned about this document as I understand the defence
5wish to, that I should be apprised as to where the
6original is and, if possible, shown a facsimile.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had evidence about that, but I am
8afraid it is not in my mind at the moment. I think it is
9been around for a long time, the Muller document, has it
11 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is mentioned in a book, at least this
12I know, by Professor Gerald Fleming, called Hitler und die
13Entlosung. It is a German book which has also been
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is right.
16 MR RAMPTON: It was published in 1982. I have Mr Irving's copy
17which he kindly gave me.
18 MR IRVING: Loaned you.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. I have no intention permanently
20to deprive Mr Irving. The point is this, not what the
21authenticity of the document might be, but that it is in a
22book which Mr Irving has, and that is what I shall be
23cross-examining him about. I am not going back to
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but he can rely on this letter.
26 MR RAMPTON: It does not seem that it is now in a particular
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, the file where you would expect to find
3it does not contain it.
4 MR RAMPTON: The reference may be wrong, I do not know. I will
5try and track it down. It is a different point. I am not
6going to cross-examine him about that.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is all of this little clip connected with
9 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. The final document in that little
10clip is actually a press report of 1983 in which Fleming
11refers to that very document. I include it purely because
12I found it by accident last night in my files. I would
13certainly rely on this little episode as being further
14proof of the negligence of the historians adduced as
15expert witnesses by the Defence in this case.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we know where Fleming got the document
18 MR IRVING: No.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is he still ----
20 MR IRVING: He is still extant.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- alive and well?
22 MR IRVING: Yes. I spoke to him a few days ago. He never
23wrote about it in a letter to me in his considerable
24correspondence which I searched.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will leave this clip on one side.
26 MR IRVING: We will be coming back to it in the course of the
1cross-examination of Professor Evans, my Lord.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I have some photographs of Winnona
4 MR IRVING: We do not need them until halfway down the
5cross-examination of Professor Evans when we get the
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Any more?
8 MR IRVING: That is my only submission.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
10 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship again has probably got something
11I have not. I knew what the first part of this exchange
12was about, because I know what the document is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not got any photographs?
14 MR RAMPTON: I have no photographs.
15 MR IRVING: Miss Rogers is sitting on everything.
16 MR RAMPTON: May I enquire through your Lordship where the
17correspondence is with the Bundesarchives, or whatever it
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have a clip which I think you have
20headed "from Monday August 23rd".
21 MR RAMPTON: We will sort it out later. I do not want to waste
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Now shall we have Professor Evans?
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
25 < Professor Evans, sworn.
26 < Examined by Mr Rampton QC.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Professor Evans, first of all, your full names please?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Richard John Evans.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Have you made a report, a long report, for these
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Have you made some corrections to it?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] More recently, have you answered some questions in writing
9from Mr Irving?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as those documents contain statements of fact, are
12you as satisfied as you can be that they are accurate?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] In so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are you
15satisfied that those opinions are fair?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. Would you remain there to be cross-examined.
18 < Cross-examined by Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Good morning, Professor Evans.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Good morning.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I intend this morning to try and deal with
22matters generally, particularly some of the matters that
23are large in recent public coverage of this case and try
24and dispose of them, and then go seriatim through
25particular points which are contained in his expert
26report. I shall also try to bring in the reports of those
1witnesses who are not going to be cross-examined or
2presenting themselves for cross-examination and test your
3Lordship's patience in that respect, and have to use this
4cross-examination or the cross-examination of Professor
5Longerich as a vehicle for introducing certain documents?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have discussed that already and that
7is something that you are perfectly entitled to do. But
8do bear in mind, if I may say it again, that it is
9important that I can follow it, preferably by reference to
11 MR IRVING: By reference to the documents, yes.
12 Professor Evans, first of all, we learned
13yesterday from Professor Browning, rather to my surprise
14that he is effectively in the pay of the Yad Vashim
15Institute, that he received 35,000 dollars from them for a
16task which he has not completed, so he is in their debt.
17Can you assure the court that you are not also in some way
18indebted to the Yad Vashim Institute or to any similar
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends rather what you mean by "any similar body".
21I am certainly not in debt to anybody, as far as I know.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, the significance being of course that Yad Vashim was
23the body which commissioned the work which is complained
24of in this action.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have never had any dealings with the Yad Vashim
26Institute of any description.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Where would you position yourself in the political
2spectrum? I think it is important that we know, when you
3are describing somebody as being an extremist of either
4left or right, where you position yourself, your own
5vantage point from which you view them?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am a member of the Labour Party. I do not suppose that
7means that one is left wing these days.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] No. Never mind the Labour Party's politics. What is your
9own personal political standpoint from which you view
10people like myself, or Margaret Thatcher, or John Major?
11Would you regard Margaret Thatcher as being moderately
12right-wing or extreme right wing?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I said, I am a member of the Labour party and, broadly
14speaking, I take the Labour Party's point of view on
15current affairs in so far as I interest myself in them.
16I would not describe myself as an expert.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you allow the Labour Party to dictate your politics to
18you or do you have any ideas of your own in this respect?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends what you mean by politics. Of course I make up
20my own mind about things.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Your writings appear to be left of centre, if I may put it
22that way. You would not expect David Irving to write a
23book, for example, about feminism or the women's movement
24or something like that.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, though I have to point out that my work on feminism
26has been heavily sharply criticised by a number of
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, maybe feminists are the kind of people who will
3never be satisfied. Would that be correct?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot really comment on that. It depends what kind of
5feminists you are talking about.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You have written about 15 books have you, about 15 titles
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 16, I think. Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] They have been published widely around the world?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They have, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] How would you describe yourself? None of your books have
12been on a best seller list, have they? They are academic
13works, are they not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are academic works, though some of are written --
15I always try to write for a wider audience. That is to
16say I always try and write in a readable manner, and some
17of my books have sold I think quite well for works that
18are scholarly. My book "In Defence of History", which
19came out two and a half years ago, has I think sold about
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You are referring to this book, is that correct?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed. That is the American edition. I have no idea
23what that sold.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] It spells "defence" differently.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed. That is why they had to reprint it. It is also
26appearing in Turkish, Japanese, German, Korean and a
1number of other languages. My book "Death in Hamburg"
2I think sold about 20,000 copies in English and German.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you talking about hard book copies or paper back
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Both.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Altogether?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I should also say that I have one won a literary
8prize for history and I have recently been elected Fellow
9of the Royal Society of Literature so it seems that my
10books are regarded as being literary in some sense.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] It is quite difficult to write literary history, is it
12not, especially when you are quoting from document? Would
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is difficult. One has maintain a balance between
15accuracy, which is of course one's first duty, and
17 Q. [Mr Irving] If you are translating a document from Chaucer in English,
18then you would not use the old language, you would use
19modern English, would you not? You would put it into
20modern English and this would not be considered in any way
21distorting the original. Is that right?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends. There are different versions of Chaucer.
23I cannot say I am an expert on Chaucer in any shape or
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Obviously, if I am referring to translating from French or
26from German, it is sometimes very difficult to get an
1exact shade of sense on a word. Frequently there is no
2exact comparison between the two words, between the
3English and the German?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is, well, I think what I would say is that, of
5course, you cannot do an absolutely literal
6translation because the word order is different and words
7have slightly different meanings, but the first duty of an
8historian is to translate from a foreign language in terms
9that render faithfully the meaning of the original.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And I think that any literary pretensions that one has
12must surely take second place to that aim.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] How would you decide what is the faithful rendering of a
14particular word in translation? Would you look just at
15that word or would you take into account your own general
16knowledge of what is going on or would you look at the
17surrounding countryside, so to speak, of the paragraphs
18before and after?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you have to do all of these things and reach your
20own judgment as to what is an accurate translation.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but the fact that you have used a word that is not a
22mirror image from one language to the other of a word in a
23translation is not necessarily evidence of a distortion or
24an intent to distort?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends on how you do it. I mean, as you know,
26dictionaries give a number of different alternative
1English equivalents for German words and you have to
2decide which one is the most accurate in the
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I will be dealing with this probably next week with
5you when you come back, Professor, but you will accept
6that, for example, a 1936 dictionary in German will
7probably give a different meaning of a word from a 1999
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] In some cases, most certainly, in some cases, not, and of
10course they give range of meanings which one has to use in
11different circumstances. It may well be, for example,
12that in 1942 or 1943 in some circumstances a word is used
13somewhat differently from the way it is used in 1936. So
14I would not take a 1936 dictionary as being absolute
15gospel for the usage of words in some circumstances in
161942 to 3. As I said, you have to look, as you said
17indeed, at the document itself and the surrounding
18documents, at the meanings, at the time, the people who
20 Q. [Mr Irving] And take your own expertise into account, is that correct?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have to use your judgment which is based on your
22reading of other documents, most certainly, yes, and,
23indeed, other people's of course. Other people will have
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Sometimes the document itself will give you a clue. We
26looked at a document with Professor Browning, October
11942, relating to the Umsiedlung of 20,000 Jews from
2Reslatosk. Just from that sentence, it was not plain what
3the word "Umsiedlung" meant, but two pages later, as
4Professor Browning correctly pointed out, the 20,000 are
5referred as anschossen, shot. So there is no question
6there, is there?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not really want to comment on it without actually
8having the document in front of me.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Later on in the same paragraph we have the sentence that
10half the inhabitants of the village of X were shot and the
11after were umgesiedelt to a neighbouring village in which
12case the word quite clearly has a different meaning, does
13it not, in the same paragraph?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Again I really do not want to comment without having the
15document in front of me.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Take it from me it is right. We went through
17it and it is obviously right.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid have not read the transcripts for that
20 MR IRVING: So it seems it is possible to have the most glaring
21inconsistencies even within the same document as to what
22the meaning of a word is?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Words may be used in different senses, yes, and certainly
24as euphemisms in some senses and not as in others. If you
25use an euphemism, well, almost by definition, in other
26circumstances it going to have its actual real meaning.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] So it is a minefield then, the translation of documents,
2or it is either a minefield or a sweet shop, a candy
3store, depending on which way you are looking at it. If
4you want to go into those documents with an evil intent or
5with a perverse intent, then you can fix a meaning which
6just fits the meaning you want, is that correct?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, if you are referring to yourself, yes. I mean,
8I would not do that.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I am ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is sauce for the goose is source for the
11gander. In a way, I understand why you are asking these
12questions. I understand the point you are making.
13 MR IRVING: I am just rubbing it in, my Lord, the fact that, as
14Professor Evans rightly said, if this applies to myself, I
15could distort the document one way, but, of course, if it
16applies to a left wing historian or a Marxist, they could
17distort exactly the same document the other way, and he
18was quite right to point this out.
19 (To the witness): We will leave the matter of
20meanings of words because we cannot do that really at this
21point without having a little bundle of documents to look
22at which I shall bring on Tuesday, I think, which will be
23a bundle of documents about the "Ausrotten", so you might
24like to prepare yourself intellectually for the word
25ausrotten and what it means.
26 Professor, you are in charge of this magnificent
1team of stallions who have been preparing the defence, is
2that correct? You were the leading, the chief expert
3witness, am I right?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I some research assistants. I have helped the defence
5in suggestion as to whom should be called as expert
6witnesses, but not all the expert the witness have been
7called at my suggestion. I certainly have not been in
8charge of them in the sense that I have directed them what
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Of course, you would not dictate to them what to write,
11but have you dictated what field of research they should
12apply their minds to in connection with this defence?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not dictated, no. I suggested to the defence that certain
14witnesses might be called to cover certain fields and
15then, of course, there were lengthy discussions as to how
16this should be made more precise and exactly what areas
17should be covered and by whom and so on. Not all of my
18suggestions were accepted, of course.
19 MR RAMPTON: Can I just sound a warning note? We are getting
20towards forbidden territory.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are on privilege.
22 MR IRVING: I certainly would not have asked him privileged
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you are the right side of the
25boundary, but Mr Rampton was putting down a marker.
26 MR IRVING: I was going to ask here, did you look specifically
1for left orientated experts or right-wing orientated
2experts? I mean, you did not ask Professor Faurisson, for
3example, did you, to give evidence?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not consider him an expert.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] You would not consider him an expert?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I think he is a charlatan.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You are right; he was stripped of his Professorship, was
8he not, by the University of Lyons or Lille, one of the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is more his work that I am concerned with and I do not
11think it is reputable work. My only concern in suggesting
12the names of expert witnesses was that they should be
13experts in their particular fields.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So a right winger is a charlatan and a left winger
15is acceptable. Would that have been your standard?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not at all, no. Had, for example, Professor Hilgrubber
17still been alive, he was a decidedly right-wing historian,
18but I consider him a reputable expert in certain fields of
19Second World War.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] What about Professor Hans Monson? Might he have come up
21with the wrong answers, perhaps?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really do not want to get into discussions of whom we
23might have called, and we did not.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think you are actually being
25asked the question in that way, and I think it is a
26legitimate question. What is the answer?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What was the question?
2 MR IRVING: Might you have called Professor Dr Hans Monson of
3the University of Fulkum(?) who is an acknowledged expert
4on this field?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But -- in the end, he has not been called.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But you would not have considered calling him?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is such a hypothetical question; I mean, I would have
8considered calling him. There are many people whom
9I would have considered calling but we did not in the end
10consider calling them.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you the question this way which
12I do not think infringes any privilege. Have you gone out
13of your way to recommend historians who have a particular
14point of view which happens to coincide with your own?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
16 MR IRVING: But you have had your knives out in the past for
17right wing historians or Nazi historians, have you not?
18In your book "In Defence of History" you make minced meat
19of some historians?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think it is also right to point out that I have very
21heavily criticised some left wing historians as well. If
22you take my book "In Defence of History", for example,
23there is some very sharp criticism of the Marxist
24historian, David Abraham, there; there is some sharp
25criticism of the Marxist historian, Christopher Hill. So
26I do not think I direct my criticisms only at historians
1who might be identified as right-wing.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] You have stepped into the shoes of Sir Geoffrey Elton at
3Cambridge, have you not?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you not hold the Chair of Modern History at Cambridge?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, but he held the Reader's Chair.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he still there?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He is dead, I am afraid.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, he is not still there, is he?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] How would we position him on the political spectrum?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Very difficult. I mean, I think in some ways he was an
13unconventional character. I did not know him very well,
14I have to say, but, on the whole, I think you could say he
16 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the difference between "unconventional" in your
17vocabulary and "extremist"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I meant more in terms of his rather unpredictable views on
20 Q. [Mr Irving] A bit of a loose cannon?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I would say that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Not politically correct?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is a very slippery term. I mean, it depends
24exactly what you mean by "politically correct". I am not
25sure that the term political correctness was very much in
26vogue at the time when he held the chair.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me assure you, I am not trying to lay any traps this
2morning or, indeed, for the rest of today. We are just
3generally exploring the terrain. So you do not have to
4have any sense of reserve in answering the questions I am
5putting to you because ----
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well ----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] --- there are no traps.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I am not an expert on Sir Geoffrey Elton whom I only
9knew very slightly and I did not read, by any means, all
10of his work. I admired, what I did read, I admired it
11greatly. I thought he was a tremendous historian and also
12a very interesting man with pungent, strongly held views,
13some of which invited disagreement, some of which did
14not. But I thought, as an historian, he was in his own
15chosen field of Tudor Constitutional History, he was a
16very good historian.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Pungently held views or pungently expressed views. Is an
18historian entitled to express views pungently which are
19different from those of the common place?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Most certainly, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] So what makes an acceptable pungently held view and an
22unacceptable pungently held view, in your view? Is it the
23supposed political leanings of the person who does the
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I think that historians, what makes it, as it were,
26debatable within conventional academic, scholarly terms is
1whether historians' views are accepted -- I am trying to
2think of an accurate way of putting this -- whether
3historians views are put forward on the basis of documents
4which are available and on a ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] The objective sources?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- reasonable interpretation of those.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You attach great importance to the objective use of
8sources, is that right?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think the sources, as it were, have a right of veto on
12what one can and what one cannot say.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Express.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But within the area that is covered by the sources that
15you use, there is, of course, scope for some disagreement.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] You have done a certain amount of research into the Nazi
17period, have you not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] This was not originally your speciality, was it?
20Originally, you came from a different era of history?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have researched on eras of the 19th and 20th
23 Q. [Mr Irving] For some reason the Nazi era is a profitable era of
24research if one writes books? I do not mean this in any
25sense as a criticism.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I have to say the only book that I have done that is
1based on archival research on the Nazi period, a book
2called "Rituals of Retribution" on the issue of capital
3punishment in Germany since the 17th century, has sold
4very badly. It is far too long and I am told that Penguin
5regard it as something of an albatross.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] It contains acres of sludge, does it?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not describe it as sludge myself, no.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] But I know the temptation. Is it true one finds documents
9that oneself finds fascinating, but the readers probably
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I think its length has daunted an English language
12readership. It is about to appear in German and I think
13Germans are less daunted by very lengthy books. But it
14does cover 300 years of history in a major area and not a
15handful of years. It does cover a large subject.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I have a confession to make, Professor Evans. I had not
17heard of you before you were actually nominated as a
18witness in this case. This is not a criticism in any
19sense at all, and I wondered where on earth I could get a
20copy of your book. Then I found a copy of your book
21actually on my desk. Somebody actually sent it to me
22months earlier. I looked through it, and probably rather
23the same as you looked through my book "Hitler's War", you
24have never read my book "Hitler's War" from cover to cover
25except when this trial began, is that right?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is true, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] You state in your expert report that you picked it up once
2and leafed through it, is that right?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, yes. It was not really essentially on
4areas with which I was concerned.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] At that time you were not dealing with the Third Reich or
6with Adolf Hitler or with the decision-making processes?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Only in terms of teaching. I have been teaching courses
8on the Third Reich for some years.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] And it would never have occurred to you to put my book on
10the list of recommended works?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not really. I think it is more concerned with military
12history than anything else. I do not know if you would
14 Q. [Mr Irving] And the courses that are taught in universities and
15colleges do not cover military history, is that correct?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Some do, but not the courses that I teach.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] In looking at the book, did it occur to you that I had had
18access to sources that no other historians had had, and
19that this might, therefore, have made it valuable for
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I have said, I mean, the sources -- of course, it
22occurred, of course, it was clear to me that you had a
23justified reputation for obtaining sources which other
24historians had not had access to, but these sources and
25your treatment of them were not, I felt, really useful for
26the kind of teaching that I was doing on the Third Reich.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask the witness to be given one of these little
2bundles, please, Miss Rogers? I am purely using you,
3Professor Evans, now as a means of getting this document
4before his Lordship. Are you familiar with the Internet?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you ever use the Internet?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Occasionally, yes. I have to say not very extensively.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to ask you at this stage to look at the first
9document, but you can leaf through if you wish. Are you
10familiar with the H Net which is an aspect of the
11Internet, a kind of communication between experts?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not very, I have to say.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] And that there are various H Nets. There is H Net,
14Anti-Semitism and so on?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] H German, and so on, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar, Professor, with a Dr David Aaron Meyer,
17who is the Associate Professor of History and who runs the
18particular discussion group on the Internet called H
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] At Dickinson State University?
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not, no.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] He expresses an opinion in his e-mail to me dated August
2423rd last year in which he says, "I have been familiar
25with your works for a very long time", meaning my works,
26"and find them exceptionally well written and
1researched". Would you share his opinion?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] He is familiar with my works and he finds them
4exceptionally well written and researched. Never mind the
5"well written", but he finds them well researched. And
6you do not accept his opinion?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends what you mean by "well researched". I mean,
8I do not dispute the fact that you have very wide and deep
9knowledge of the source material for the Third Reich,
10particularly during the Second World War, above all, and
11of course it is quite right, as countless historians have
12pointed out, that you discovered many new sources.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] What have I done with these sources? Have I made them
14available immediately to the community?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I was about to go on to say that the problem for me is
16what you do with the sources when you then start to
17interpret them and write them up.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] But do I do two things with these sources, is this
19correct? On the one hand, I write my books based on them,
20on the other hand, I automatically placed the entire
21collection of these new sources in various institutes
22where people like yourself and your researchers and other
23historians around the world can immediately go and see
24them; is that correct?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Some of them you have placed, you have made available, and
26the others you have not.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with any collections that I have not
2immediately made available? Can you identify any?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, the interrogations of Hans Aumeier, which have
4already been discussed in this courtroom, it took you four
5or five years to make those or six years to make those
7 Q. [Mr Irving] We have actually discussed them at some length in this
8courtroom, and it is true that I did not make the actual
9bundle of documents available to other historians after
10I discovered them. This is true. Can you suggest there
11may be a reason why I, having discovered that little
12scoop, did not make them immediately available to others?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It seemed to me that they were somewhat embarrassing
14for your position on the existence of gas chambers at
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the letter that I wrote to Professor
17Robert Jan van Pelt in May 1996 drawing his attention to
18this bundle of documents?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is four years after you discovered the documents and
20a letter to one person. That is not the same as making
21them generally available immediately.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that Professor Robert Jan van Pelt was the
23world's acknowledged expert on Auschwitz and he was the
24appropriate person to have his attention drawn to this
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, but I repeat, that is not the same as making them
1generally available immediately which is your initial
2claim you made a few minutes ago.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that there is a difference between my
4visiting elderly widows and persuading them to part with
5their diaries, on the one hand, and, on the other hand,
6something which is in the public domain already in the
7British public archives and where anybody can go and find
8it if they have sufficient nouse, and nobody else has
9bothered to. There is a difference there.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not sure. It was in a very -- it is in a somewhat
11unexpected place where you might not expect to find it in
12the Public Record Office in the files of the Political
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you expect a researcher on Auschwitz to have
15sufficient acumen to go to the Public Record Office and
16look in the files of the War Office Military Intelligence,
17WO208, and in the catalogue find a file called
18"Interrogations of Hans Aumeier of Auschwitz", would that
19take much intelligence, do you think?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have to know exactly where to look for in
2119 -- I think these were only released in 1991 and 1992.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask the same question in a different
23way? If you had come across the Aumeier diary, I think it
24is a diary, what would you have done with it if you felt
25it was your duty to place it in the public domain?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Published an article about it, I think, in a learned
1journal. It is a somewhat problematic document, but
2I think it is of some interest and importance.
3 MR IRVING: Professor Evans, have you seen a letter of mine in
4the files which are disclosed to you by way of discovery
5in which I wrote to the Institute of Contemporary History
6-- disregarding your views about that Institute at this
7moment -- and suggested precisely that, that this item,
8the Aumeier papers, should be published in some learned
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Which Institute of Contemporary ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving] The one in California, the IHR?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, that is the institute Of Historical Review, so-called.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, I am sorry. I gave you the wrong name, yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do not regard that as a respectable academic
16 Q. [Mr Irving] But was this not an offer, a suggestion, by me that this
17document should be placed in the public domain by way of
18somebody writing a learned paper about it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you place your letter in front of me, a copy of it,
20I would be happy to look at it.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] I am asking a general question here, what degree of access
22have you been given to all the documents that I made
23available to the Defence by way of discovery? Have you
24seen everything or have you had everything available to
25you or have you been able to pick and choose or have you
26had just limited access?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Everything has been made available, but, of course, as you
2will appreciate, there is an enormous quantity of material
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read my entire correspondence between myself and
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We have certainly had access to it and it has been looked
7through and some of it, of course, is cited in my report.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Evans, you expressed the opinion in your report
9that my diaries may have been written for some ulterior
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you point to the page in my report where I say that,
13 Q. [Mr Irving] That sounded to me as though it was a rehearsed remark.
14I shall avoid wasting the court's time. It is in the
15first few pages and I shall say, is it true that it is
16your opinion that I may have written the diaries for some
17reason other than one would normally write a diary? What
18are your suspicions about why I wrote that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Would you like to point me to the page where I -- you see,
20I have a problem, Mr Irving, which is that, having been
21through your work, I cannot really accept your version of
22any document, including passages in my own report, without
23actually having it in front of me, so I think this may be
24a problem for us.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] If may make things easier for you, of course. That is
26precisely why I do not and I do not think his Lordship
1will accept that kind of answer to my questions either.
2Let me phrase a simple question to you. You have read all
3my diaries or you have had all my diaries made available
4to you and you have read extensively ----
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They have been made available. I have to say they were
6not particularly useful for my report. My report is
7concerned almost entirely with your published writings and
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you find frequently in the diaries of the 1970s
10descriptions of my meetings with members of Hitler's
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think I refer to that in my report.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] No. Did the other experts ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There are one or two references in my report.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] --- Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell have access to
16these diaries as well and also their researchers?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed they did. I think they -- yes, they did.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you form any kind of consensus about these diaries?
19Did you form any kind of opinion as to whether, for
20example, the diaries were written with a view to
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not discussed the diaries with Professor Eatwell or
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you form an opinion yourself about whether the diaries
25were perfectly ordinary diaries written for whatever
26psychological reason people have to write diaries, or were
1they written rather like Alan Clark with an intention of
2publishing later on or somewhere in between?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is really getting into the realms of speculation
4about your psychology, Mr Irving, which I would rather
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am asking you about your opinion. I am asking your
7opinion, having read the diaries. You have expressed an
8opinion in the report and I am asking what your opinion is
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you direct me to the place in the report where I
11express this opinion?
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I am asking you what your opinion is now. Do you think
13the diaries were written genuinely or were they written as
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me try to find this place that we are trying to
16discuss here in the report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I am not trying to trap you into providing a useful
18answer. I am trying to lay the groundwork for questions
19which will be based on the diaries, Professor Evans.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just looking at the very end of it,
21Professor Evans, but I cannot quite find what I think
22perhaps Mr Irving has in mind.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is page 16, paragraph 1.5.6 which I said I have had
24access to his complete private diaries, where I simply
25describe them as "private diaries".
26 MR IRVING: Can you not just answer simply my question? Having
1had that access to these private diaries, have you formed
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, not really. I mean, I do not, I do not really want to
4speculate as to why they are being written. Certainly
5some of them, as you know, are published, you have put
6extracts up and you publish extracts. So, from that point
7of view, certainly, I would imagine there was an intention
8of publishing at least part of them because you have
9actually published them.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But whether that applies to all of them is a completely --
12is a rather different matter. It is rather similar, in a
13way, to Goebbels's diaries. As you know, those which he
14published in his lifetime, those were the early 1930s, he
15did excise quite substantial chunks before he published
17 Q. [Mr Irving] In Goebbels', for example, and I do not accept there is
18any comparison, he wrote handwritten diaries and he
19dictated typescript diaries, did he not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, yes, and he signed a publishing contract,
21as you know, of his diaries.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] And he published, for example, the 1933 diary as a book
23later on which was quite close but not the same as ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is what I was referring to, yes. He excised certain
25parts of it, so one could not say that everything in his
26earlier diaries were written with a view to publication.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] In your expert report you said that I was obliged to turn
2over my diaries to the Defence. What did you mean by
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you point to me the page where I say that?
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Oh, dear!
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, do we really need to go to that?
7I expect you probably did say that.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I really, my Lord, would ask I be pointed to where
9I say that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right, if you really want it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid I do, yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you help Mr Irving? It is difficult to
13be asked to -- it is a report running to about 750 pages.
14 MR RAMPTON: Can I tell your Lordship what actually happened?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know exactly what happened which is why I
16wondered whether Professor Evans really needed to be
17referred to the documents.
18 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship knows what happened? Oh, well, that
19is fine. Then there cannot be any contest because
20Mr Irving knows too.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. I think this is perhaps not a useful
23 MR IRVING: It is wording that he used there in the expert
24report. It is adding a flavour here as though I was
25dragged kicking and screaming into the courtroom and taken
26under armed guard back to my house ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, can we just short circuit this? Can I
2just see whether we cannot short circuit? You were
3compelled by the process of what is now called disclosure
4to hand over a whole lot of what you very understandably
5regard as private documents because they are your own
7 MR IRVING: That is not quite so, my Lord.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have the passage here: "Irving has been obliged to
9disclose an enormous mass of material in addition to the
10list of documents he initially agreed to supply".
11I understood that you were indeed obliged to hand over
12your private diaries to defence by court order.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you understand that I was ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Is that not the case?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] --- obliged to hand over my entire diaries?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is my understanding, yes, because they were deemed to
17be relevant to the case.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Was it not the case, in fact, that originally the
19Defence asked to see any diary references to, I believe,
20half a dozen or a dozen people in my entire diaries?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot really answer that. I have not been privy to
22every move that the defence has made, but I am aware of
23the fact that the Master of the Queen's Bench did order
24you to hand over all the diaries because they were deemed
25to be relevant to the case.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you attach any criticism to Mr Irving for
1his reluctance to hand over his entire diaries?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, I think it is quite understandable.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So do I. Are we gaining anything by this?
4 MR IRVING: My lord, there was no reluctance to hand over the
5diaries at all; quite the contrary. Will you accept,
6witness, that, in fact, when I was asked to provide the
7diary references to these dozen people, which would have
8involved me in an inordinate amount of labour, looking
9through 49 volumes of diaries for 10 names, will you
10accept that I volunteered to provide the entire diaries to
11the defence whereupon Mr Anthony Julius said yes?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you can show me the documents in which you did so.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to stop this because I do not
14think this is helping me at all. I do not think any
15criticism attaches to you in relation to the diaries and,
16even if it did, it really would not bear on the issues we
17have to decide.
18 MR IRVING: I am sorry I am being so obtuse, my Lord, but I am
19reaching a point which I will now bring forward by one or
20two sentences, if I may?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do.
22MR IRVING (To the witness): You have had at your disposal,
23have you not, witness, therefore, either jointly or
24severally as a defence team, something like 20 or 30
25million words of my private diaries which I made no
26attempt to conceal, is that so?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Which were disclosed by a court order, that is right, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that the court order concerned only the
3limitations on whom these diaries could be shown to apart
4from yourselves, and that they should be destroyed after
5this case was over? In other words, a court order was
6requested by myself to protect the privacy of those
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I understood that the Defence went to court in order to
9obtain access to the documents. There may have been an
10additional -- I think there was an additional court order
11which restricted access yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] You have had 20 or 30 million words of my private diaries,
13also complete transcripts of my telephone conversations
14where they were recorded on tape and transcribed.
15You have also had transcripts of enumerable speeches and
16public lectures that I delivered. Out of this enormous
17documentation, you and the entire defence team have picked
18one or two sentences which you then displayed for the
19delectation of the entire world, have you not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I think it is more than one or two. I think I made
21a distinction between the diaries which, as I said, were
22not really very useful for my report because my report is
23mainly concerned with your published work as an historian
24and, clearly, your private diaries are concerned with many
25other things. So you will have noticed as you look
26through my report that I do not really say very much about
1them and I cite them in just a handful of cases and they
2are really not very central. What you have on the
3published record, in terms of speeches and writings, is a
4very different matter. And in 740 ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that diaries go to the state of mind more
6than speeches, private diaries?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] In the 740 pages of my report, I do cite all of these
8other things extremely extensively. I think it is more
9one or two sentences. It is more like several hundred,
10including some very lengthy extracts.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] We are at present dealing just with the diaries. We will
12deal with the other matters bit by bit. But will you
13accept that if you had 20 or 30 million words of diaries
14in front of you -- I have to confess, I have not counted
15them; I have just done a back of an envelope calculation
16as to how many words are involved -- but you have had all
17these diaries which go very clearly to my state of mind,
18my private state of mind, and you have found at the end of
19this enormous mountainous task, one ditty?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not my report.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] To prove that I am racist?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, that is not quoted in my report.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I am afraid I have to put to you this question
24because you have had access to these and, unfortunately,
25the person who put that in his report is not presenting
26himself for cross-examination.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But, Mr Irving, my Lord, I hope I can say that I really do
2not feel I should answer or can answer questions on
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a question that you can be asked
5which you would have to answer and I think -- may I ask
6it? No, you do not have to answer for other people's
7thoughts, but I think the question is this -- Mr Irving,
8tell me if I am wrong -- the use that is made of the ditty
9is unrepresentative of the diaries in their totality. Is
10that really what you are asking?
11 MR IRVING: That is precisely the point I was going to make, my
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a question you may or may not be able
14to answer, but ask the question.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. One thing I want to say is that your diaries,
16Mr Irving, are not introspective diaries. There are many,
17many different kinds of diaries but you do not fill them
18with agonising over your own state of mind, so that it is
19often rather difficult. They are not primarily sources
20for your state of mind. Indeed, that is not what I in
21particular used them for. I cannot answer for witnesses
22and what they will have used your diaries for. I used
23them principally for identifying, such as I could,
24contacts that you had had with Holocaust deniers. That
25was my main purpose of looking through them.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] We are going to come to that later.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But for other things, for views that you express and so
2on, I had all your published work, and that surely is
4 Q. [Mr Irving] We will come to that in a minute.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is a mass of more work there.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you at this point, if, for example, you had come
7across in the diaries sentences like "Zundel is a lunatic"
8or "Faurisson is completely irresponsible or
9incorrigible", or something like that, would you have
10quoted that in your report, or would you have left it out?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you point to me the places in the diaries where you
13 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a hypothetical question and we will come back to
14chapter and verse next week.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe the best way of dealing with it is to
16ask the witness to answer the question that I put, namely
17do you think that the ditty is selected and that it is an
18unrepresentative entry in one of the diaries, if you look
19at the totality of what is in the diaries?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends, my Lord, what you mean by "unrepresentative".
21There is not a ditty a day.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I think the word is fairly clear in the context of my
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is not a ditty a day, it is one ditty, but there are
25many other remarks of that sort. That is only one ditty.
26It is not full of these things.
1 MR IRVING: You say there are many other remarks of that sort?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you quote any, or did any of the witnesses to your
4knowledge quote any of these other remarks?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I only know what I have been reading in the court
7 Q. [Mr Irving] From the diary. We are just talking at this stage about
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really cannot answer for other witnesses.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] I have had held up around the world as a racist who has
11poisoned the mind of my infant.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not by me, Mr Irving. I have not quoted your offensive
13racist comments in my report.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Or the Defence team of which you are part. You have not
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Offensive comments in my report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Which offensive racist comments have I made then?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You just referred to them.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Apart from the ditty?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You just referred to them yourself.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] We are referring here to the ditty from the diary.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I have been held up by the defence in this case to obloquy
24around the world. In yesterday's Guardian there is this
25photograph of me and the headline which his Lordship can
26read, "The Bogey Man in the Nursery", the Guardian
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is legitimate. I think
3I have asked the question that can be asked. I am sorry,
4Mr Rampton, I did not see you were on your feet.
5 MR RAMPTON: I agree, and what is quite wrong is for Mr Irving,
6once again if I may say so and I will say it bluntly, to
7distort the record by referring to just one of the
8goodness knows how many examples that I have
9cross-examined him about and that have been noticed in the
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a limit to what you can achieve by
12this cross-examination. You can put it, and I hope I have
13put it for you, that really they have picked out -- it is
14cherry picking. That is what you are really accusing the
16 MR IRVING: This is the one cherry that they have found in the
17diaries, my Lord, and I insist on this. If Mr Rampton
18wishes to produce others from the diaries?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In due course he will. He cannot do it now.
20 MR RAMPTON: I am just going to be going through it all again.
21I suppose Mr Irving remembers how God was reaching the
22Final Solution of the black problem with Aids in South
24 MR IRVING: We will deal with that when the time comes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, please, we must focus on what this
26witness is here for.
1 MR IRVING: You said that it is unrepresentative?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not said it is unrepresentative.
3 MR IRVING: I am sorry, you have used the word
4"unrepresentative". I say it was unrepresentative? It
5was 19 words out of 30 million.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not quoted in my report, Mr Irving. I am here to
7answer questions on my report. You may ask other
8witnesses on their reports.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know what percentage of me is therefore racist?
10.00016 per cent of me is racist.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Is that a question?
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Which means that 99.9984 per cent of me is not, according
13to the diaries.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I do not think this is really
15helpful. Can we leave it this way? I have got a clip of
16what the Defendants rely on for their allegation that you
17are a racist. I will have to make what I can of that.
18You have asked the question that this witness I think has
19answered and I personally think that we would do well to
21 MR IRVING: That is right, my Lord. The reason for asking this
22witness is that he said yes, he read the diaries, as much
23he needed to. He says this because he has formed the
24opinion that they are not very introspective.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has given his answer. You may not agree
26with it but he has given his answer.
1 MR IRVING: Can I now put to the witness the photographs, or is
2this not the appropriate moment?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know what you are going to put.
4 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is something the witness cannot
5possibly answer questions upon.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It depends a bit what the question is. Tell
7me what the question is going to be and then I will decide
8whether you can ask it.
9 MR IRVING: The question will be: Witness, if you see
10photographs of members of my staff whom I have
11employed over the last 20 years, does it strike you that
12I am a racist?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is your reaction to that?
14 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I say this? This witness is not here
15to give evidence about whether or not Mr Irving is a
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is perfectly open to cross-examination,
18I think, on his view. He may say, "I cannot answer
19because I have not seen the documents or seen the
21 MR RAMPTON: With respect, I do not think he can. He is here as
22an expert in history. He is not here as an expert in
24 MR IRVING: He has accused me of anti-semitism and racism in
26 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, it is for your Lordship to decide in
1the end, and opinion evidence about whether or not Mr
2Irving is a racist is not admissible, with respect.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not so sure about that. The trouble is
4with this report I am not able to go to the passage that
5I think may be there. Unless you seek to argue it very
6strongly, Mr Rampton, I am inclined to accept that it can
7be put to this witness, I do not know what his answer is
8going to be, that Mr Irving has over the years employed a
9number of coloured people, does that have any influence on
10this witness's views of his agenda, if there is one?
11 MR RAMPTON: That may be right but, if the witness is entitled
12to express a view about that, which I doubt because he is
13an historian, not a sociologist, even if he were a
14sociologist, I doubt it would help your Lordship, but he
15is not. But it would involve his being shown everything
16that I relied on as showing that Mr Irving is a racist,
17and only in the light of that information can this witness
18fairly answer a question about the colour of the skin of
19Mr Irving's servants.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect that the position actually is with
21Professor Evans that he knows pretty much what the
22Defendants' case on this.
23 MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether he does or not. I certainly
24have not discussed it with him.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we find out? Professor Evans, have you
26been reading the transcripts of this case?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen the cross-examination that took place on the
3issue of racism?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to permit the question, but I do
6not think we want to spend terribly long on this.
7 MR IRVING: Very well. I am landing you a clip of five pages
8of photographs. Can you see the date on the earliest
9one? Is it 1980?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it appear to show a female of Barbadian or Caribbean
12descent standing at the door of the car, a Rolls Royce,
13with her mother?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you turn the page, please? Does this show another
16woman of ethnic origin, of coloured origin?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is hard to tell.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Asian or black?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Possibly.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you just look briefly at all the others and confirm
21that they are all ethnics working in an office?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are indeed.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Apparently quite content?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept from me that they were all my personal
26assistants over the years concerned, and that they
1received a proper salary from me?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Have you got documentary proof of that?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could I have a look at it, please?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, let us take it as read that these
6ladies were all employed by Mr Irving. Does that, in your
7view, Professor Evans, affect the question whether, in his
8writings and in what he said, Mr Irving has displayed
9evidence of a racist attitude? That is the question.
10Then we are going to move on.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. In the end I do not think it does, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Now lets move to something else,
14 MR IRVING: Yes. This is another contentious issue, but we
15will deal with it very rapidly. Professor Evans, you have
16heard Mr Rampton talk about the expense of this trial and
17about how much it is costing per day no doubt?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware of the fact that the trial is costing a
20considerable amount each day that it runs?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I imagine it must be. I have no idea how much.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] In the little bundle of documents I gave you, headed "from
23Monday" will you see one page from the transcript, about
24page 8 or thereabouts, headed January 28th 2000?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this transcript appear to show that I have suggested
1to the court that, if they were to send members of the
2Defence to Krakow to scrape the roof off the alleged gas
3chamber at Auschwitz and find the holes, I would wind up
4the case immediately because I could not possibly continue
5with my complaint?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, and the witness says he cannot comment on that.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] The witness says he cannot comment, that is quite right.
8To your knowledge, has any attempt been made by the
9Defence to end the case rapidly in this dramatic way?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot really comment on that, I am afraid, any more
11than the witness you questioned could comment. I am not
12an expert on Auschwitz, Mr Irving. I am not here to
13answer questions about Auschwitz. I am here to answer
14questions on my report. So far, you have hardly asked a
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is for me, Professor Evans, thank you
18 MR IRVING: His Lord is aware of these problems that we have
19with the presentation of the Defence witnesses in this
20case. Are you familiar with the fact that a number of
21Defence witnesses in this case are not going to be giving
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think one or two of them are not. I am not quite sure
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware of the fact that the Second Defendant is not
26going to give evidence, Professor Lipstadt?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Professor Lipstadt, yes, I am aware of that.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] And that Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell will not be
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that is right. I understand, my Lord, that the
5Defence are perfectly entitled to do that.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and I make no criticism of them for that. Am I
7allowed to put to him a page of Professor Eatwell's
8report, my Lord?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In principle, yes.
10 MR IRVING: It would be page 74, paragraph 4.6. I can read out
11the lines concerned?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could I have a copy, please?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It might be simpler, Professor Evans, if you
14hear the line that is going to be read to you and see
15whether you need the context.
16 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think this probably goes to a matter we
17have dealt with, so I am not going to ask it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
19 MR IRVING: I am sorry, yes, he does need it. Page 76 now.
20I think I ought just to refer in fact to page 74, to what
21Professor Eatwell about the matter we disposed of.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 74, paragraph 4.6, at line 9 Professor Eatwell, who
24was one of the experts who was working in tandem with you
25writes: "Yet Irving is an open advocate of the
26repatriation of immigrants. The fact that he has employed
1'coloured' people does prove he is liberal". This is
2Professor Eatwell's view.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] "The point here is not simply that he might perceive the
5advantages of this practice in terms of defusing charges
6of racism." In other words, Professor Eatwell, can I take
7it, is there suggesting that I deliberately employed this
8coloured staff in order not to be accused of racism?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think he is suggesting it is a possibility, though
10I cannot answer for him what he intends there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] It makes it very difficult for people, does it not, that
12we are hanged if we do and we are shot if we do not, so to
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is really a question.
15That is a comment that you can make at the end of the
17 MR IRVING: It is. The question I would ask Professor Evans,
18then, is what does it take to prove that one is not racist
19if one employs coloured people in exactly the same way as
20one employs whites, one does not prefer them or
21disadvantage them in any way, one pays them exactly the
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That again, if I may say so, Mr Irving, is
24really argument and I understand the argument. But I do
25not think that Professor Evans can do much more on racism
26than he has done by his previous answers.
1 MR IRVING: Will you now go to page 76, Professor Eatwell?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My name is Evans, not Eatwell. I did not write this
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, will you take it that
5between us we will try and keep the questioning
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] OK. It is just that I do find it very difficult to answer
8questions on other people's reports which I have not
9written, which I have not researched, and which were not
10written in tandem with me but were written independently.
11 MR IRVING: We are appealing here to your common sense as a
12learned person really, asking for your opinion.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But I am here as an expert, Mr Irving.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on.
15 MR IRVING: I am sure that his Lordship would have no objection
16if you wish to sit actually, Professor.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am happier standing actually. It makes moving around
18with the documents easier.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 76 at paragraph 4.11 the same kind of argument.
20Again, it is by Professor Eatwell and not yourself but
21I am entitled, I think, to put the question to you. "The
22fact that Irving has on occasion made some criticisms of
23Hitler does not prove that he is an anti-fascist. There
24are clear tactical reasons to adopt such a position." Is
25this your argument also, Professor Evans?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think he is concerned here with your current political
1position, whereas I am concerned with your historical
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So would you argue the fact that, and I shall show
4you this next week, I have made large numbers of
5statements in my biographies of various top Nazis, which
6can in no way be described as proHitler or proNazi, would
7you agree with Professor Eatwell's inference or imputation
8that I have done this in order to defuse criticism and for
9no other reason?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You would have to show me the statements first before
11I could comment on them.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, I suppose, in a way a legitimate
13answer, but can I just persuade you that it can be
14answered generally in this way? It is right, if you read
15Hitler's War, that there are critical statements made
16about Hitler, quite a number of them, and the question is
17simply this, and perhaps you would be good enough to try
18and answer it. Have you seen evidence that those are
19inserted into Hitler's War for what you might call
20tactical reasons, in other words for Mr Irving to be able
21to draw attention to them and use them in disproof of any
22allegation that he is a Hitler partisan?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is very speculative, I think. What I do do in my
24report is to go through some of the critical points that
25Mr Irving makes, and they do not, in my view, detract from
26the fact that he is in general someone who admires Hitler,
1put it like that. I would not really want to speculate on
2why they are being put in for political, what political
3reasons they might be put in for, which is really what
4Professor Eatwell is talking about. I think he is talking
5about something slightly different. My concern is with
6Mr Irving's attitude toward Hitler in his historical
7writings. Of course, there are criticisms of Hitler
8there, I perfectly accept that.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, if I may say so, a perfectly
10complete and fair answer.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not really a concern of mine to show why they have
12been put there.
13 MR IRVING: You would have preferred the criticisms to be
14stated more loudly perhaps, or more criticisms and fewer
15bits of admiration, as you call it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not presume to dictate to you what you write in
17your books, Mr Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Oh? But this is precisely what you have done in your
19expert report, is it not? You have said "I disagree
20entirely with his standpoint". You do not like where
21I put my pointer on the scale, so to speak, is that
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My criticisms are concerned with your historical method.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that the Second Defendant said that my
25admiration of Hitler went so far, by imputation, by
26inference, that I had a portrait of Adolf Hitler hanging
1on my wall in my study?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do in fact cite I think in my report a book by Robert
3Harris called "Serving Hitler" where I think he mentions
4something like that, if I can find the place where it is.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I can save you time perhaps by showing you the only
6portrait of Hitler which is in my possession. Can I show
7you this and you can see it from there?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 212, I think.
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, can your Lordship also see it? It is a
10post card on which Adolf Hitler sketched his own likeness
11and which was given to me by his private secretary and so
12it has a certain intrinsic value. Would you accept that
13this is what Robert Harris is probably referring to?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It may well be, I do not know. Let me quote from Robert
15Harris: "Looking down upon him (that is you) as he worked
16from the wall above his desk was a self-portrait of
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is being put is that the self-portrait
19that he was writing about was the post card.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That may well be. I do not know. You would have to ask
21Mr Harris about that, but his work seems to be an accurate
22work, as far as I am concerned. I do not recall Mr Irving
23raising objections to that sentence in it.
24 MR IRVING: But you accept that to describe that as being a
25portrait of Adolf Hitler hanging on my wall gives the
26wrong impression, does it not? Would that be right?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If it was hanging on your wall, it gives the right
3 Q. [Mr Irving] If it was not hanging on the wall, if it was occasionally
4shown to visitors as something of a trophy, like Robert
5Harris, who is a good friend, would that be right?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, if you are saying that it was not looking down upon
7him as he worked from the wall above his desk, then
8I suppose you would be right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Given your expert evidence, as you have, in your report,
10and having read the expert evidence of Professor Eatwell
11and Professor Levin, you are quite content to level at me
12also the charge of anti-Semitism, is that right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is not right. I do not describe you as an
14anti-Semitic, unless you can show me a passage in my
15report where I do.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you consider me to be an anti-semite from all that you
17know, from the books that I have written and that you have
18read, or statements that I have made?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not want to speculate about your state of mind.
20However, I do cite numerous statements of yours which
21I regard as anti-semitic.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you categorize these statements in some way, or would
23you prefer, without being specific -- I mean, are these
24just statements critical of the Jewish people, or specific
25Jews like Simon Wiesenthal or particular Jews, or is there
26a general animosity that you detect in me towards the
1Jewish? How would you define "anti-Semitism"? I think
2that is the question I am going to ask first. How would
3you define "anti-Semitism" for the purposes of this trial?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I am not an expert in that area, but anti-Semitism
5can be defined very simply. There are numerous different
6ways you can define anti-Semitism. There are different
7levels and degrees of anti-semitism.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] You just called me anti-semitic, so you must know what you
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There are different levels and degrees of anti-Semitism
11and so on. It does seem to me that in your writings, and
12I quote numbers of them in my report, you do blame the
13Jews for the Holocaust, you try to pin responsibility for
14their misfortunes in the Third Reich on themselves. You
15use language in describing Jews in the present day that
16I regard as anti-Semitic.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All of those things. Anti-Semitism obviously at its most
19basic is hostility to hatred of and contempt for Jews, but
20it is also a political ideology, which involves a belief
21in a conspiracy, that Jews are conspiratorial in some way,
22that they are conspiring to undermine whatever it might
24 Q. [Mr Irving] A kind of common endeavour? How do you define conspiracy
25in that respect?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] A secret combination or behind the scenes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And none of these allegations should ever be levelled at
2any people, right? True or false? One should never say
3these things? Is that what are you saying?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not saying that should never be said, true or
5false, but it should not be said if it is false.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] If it is true, then it cannot be called anti-Semitism, it
7would just be called foolishness, perhaps, to make the
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well I have to say that I believe that belief in the world
10of Jewish conspiracy to do whatever it might be, whether
11it is to suppress the works of David Irving or undermine
12Germany in the 1930s, is a fantastic belief that has no
13grounds of reality.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Are we talking here in the hypothetical or have you some
15reason for suggesting that I believe there is a world
16Jewish conspiracy to undermine my writings, Professor?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It seems to me from what you have said in your opening
18statement that you do believe there is some kind of
19conspiracy, but leaving that aside, I come back to the
20fact in my report I do quote a number of instances of
21views, interpretations and language which I regard as
22anti-Semitic in your writings and particularly your
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Are the Jews, either as a people or their elected or
25unelected leaders, in some way immune from criticism? Is
26there to be no criticism for whatever reason?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Certainly not. That is not the case at all.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] If one criticises either the Jewish people or the leaders
3for specific matters, is that ipso facto anti-Semitism?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, certainly not.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So there are circumstances in which, wisely or otherwise,
6one would be entitled to criticise a body of Jews for a
7particular action without it necessarily being
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, individual Jews certainly, or groups. I think it
10becomes more problematical when you start defining Jews as
11a race or a world community.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I can never understand the difference between calling them
13a religion or a race and I do not want to get into that
14region. I have never made any distinction. If, for
15example, one was to point to the fact that most of the
16leadership of the Hungarian government at the time of the
17anti-government uprising in 1956 was Jewish, would that be
18an anti-Semitic remark?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not an expert on the Hungarian uprising.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But, if it was so, if they were perceived to be Jewish,
21put it that way, by the public, would it be anti-Jewish to
22point to this element?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have a number of hypotheticals there. You would have
24to show first of all that they were perceived to be that
25way by the public, which is rather difficult.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us move on to the NKVD if it was stated that a large
1proportion, a disproportionate number of the leading
2officers of the NKVD, the Soviet Secret Police, were
3Jewish would that be an anti-semitic remark to point that
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Again, I am not an expert on the NKVD.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But if? We are looking at the word "if".
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is very hypothetical. You would have to show concrete
8sound evidence that (a) they were Jewish and (b) that they
9were acting in some kind of conspiracy or action because
10they were Jewish.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think I am going to intervene
12because I think we are making very, very slow progress.
13Professor Evans certainly deals with anti-Semitism and you
14can direct questions to him as to whether there is any
15justification for a charge against you of anti-Semitism.
16But I think discussing whether it is anti-semitic to say
17that officers in the NKVD are Jewish is really not helping
18me at all.
19 MR IRVING: If he is going to describe somebody as being
20anti-semitic, I wanted to know what criteria he set.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We know what criteria the Defendants set and
22I think one can assume that that is the target at which
23they are aiming, if I can put it that way.
24 MR IRVING: To my mind, to be an anti-Semitic, you have to be
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is something we will probably have to
1debate at the end of the case, but I do not think now is
2the time to debate it with Professor Evans.
3 MR IRVING: Having read all the documents that have been placed
4at your disposal, this I am sure I can ask you ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes you can.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, with respect, you do not know what I am
7about to ask him.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do. Go on, ask him.
9 MR IRVING: Are you aware of the fact that a number of Jewish
10bodies and organizations over the last 20 years have
11attempted prevent me from publishing books, delivering
12speeches, attending lectures and functions at universities
13and the like?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am aware that you allege this, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Having read the documents, having read the letters that
16are in discovery, having read the papers that I have
17obtained by various legal proceedings belonging to a
18certain British body and their equivalent bodies in the
19United States and Canada?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My report is concerned with your work as an historian.
21What I should say is that there is an enormous amount of
22material that is at the disposable of the Defence in this
23case. I have not read it all. I have read the material
24which is relevant to my particular report which is
25concerned with your work as an historian. I have not read
26systematically through the mass of material which is
1relevant to the political aspects of the case, and other
2matters such as that.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, this question now goes to the first Defendant and
4I am going to ask the witness, do you teach about fascism
5to your students?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with this kind of book, Fascism For
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I know that series, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it a commendable series?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not very, I have to say, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I put to you, if I may, you have it already in the
13little bundle, if you turn to the 9th page of the little
14bundle will you find the front page of that book in
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Fascism for Beginners written by Stuart Hood and Litzer
18Janz, who is the artist I believe. Would you turn to the
19next page and tell me who distributes this book in the
20United Kingdom, Canada, Europe and Asia?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The Penguin group.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] The Penguin Group does. Is that the first Defendant in
23this case Penguin Books Limited?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I believe so, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you turn to page 11, The Spread of Neo Fascism? Is
26this a chapter on the spread of fascism through Britain?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am prepared to accept your statement that it is, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] It talks about how the these various parties, including a
3party called the Austrian Freedom Party, which obviously
4has no hope of ever coming to power ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what possible relevance has this
6got to this case?
7 MR IRVING: If you will turn to page 12, my Lord, the relevance
8becomes plain. Did Hitler really exist, and there is a
9certain gentleman putting on Swastika eye glasses there.
10Do you have that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you see anybody in the courtroom who is like or
13resembles the person who is putting on the Swastika eye
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not a very good likeness, I have to say.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he labelled as David Irving?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, he is labelled as David Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he saying, "This myth of the mass murder of Jews in the
19death factories of Auschwitz which in fact never took
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, he is.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] And does it half way down the page say: "British historian
23David Irving who describes himself as a mild fascist"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am still puzzled as to what the
26relevance of this is. I can see that you object to it.
1What do you say it goes to?
2 MR IRVING: The first Defendants in this case have a record of
3publishing books attacking me, my Lord.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may put it this way, so what? The way
5in which you can rely on it, can I try to help you, is
6that you can say that you are particularly distressed at
7the libel of which you are complaining in this action by
8the fact that Penguin Books keep having a go at you, and
9ridiculing you by that sort of portrayal, but that is a
10matter for your evidence. That is not a matter for
11cross-examination of Professor Evans.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, how else can I put this kind of document
13before the court?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You could have done it, I am not being
15critical of you, and you can certainly do it as far as
16I am concerned later on if you want to, you can simply
17say, "And here is a book which I read and it caused me
18additional distress because this is a publishing house
19that seems to have it in for me".
20 MR RAMPTON: I also think, if I may say so, that we need to be
21notified. I am not saying there is any objection to this
22now but, normally speaking, if one tenders evidence to the
23court in modern times in support of one's case, one is
24obliged to tell the other side first.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a fair point as well. Shall we leave
26it then so far as Professor Evans is concerned and, if you
1want to give evidence about it later on then you can and
2Mr Rampton has now been forewarned, and he can
4 MR IRVING: This precise book is referred to in my claim and
5also in my reply to their defence, and it has been in my
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know that.
8 MR RAMPTON: I did not either.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but I really do not think Professor
10Evans -- I am sympathetic, Mr Irving, and I am perhaps
11bending the rules in your favour a little bit, to letting
12you put some of the points made against you in some of the
13experts' reports when those experts are not going to be
14called to give evidence, but there is not unlimited
15latitude and I think this goes over the boundary, if I may
17 MR IRVING: But, with respect, my Lord, I fail to see how I
18could put it in otherwise because I cannot do it in my
19closing speech, obviously.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you can, I have just told you, you can
21give evidence about it. This is not something that is
22relevant in cross-examination at all. I am trying to
23explain to you. It is something that you can adduce in
24your own evidence as being evidence going to the issue of
25damage. That is the way to deal with it, not in
26cross-examining any witness, and certainly not Professor
2 MR IRVING: When you were engaged to write this expert report,
3were you shown at any time any law report that had been
4produced by Penguin books in this country, any libel
5reading report on the book, on the book that is complained
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] When your books are published in the United Kingdom, your
9own books, are they subjected to a legal reading to see if
10they libel anyone?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not that I have ever been aware of.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] So, to your knowledge, therefore, as far as you know,
13there was no report prepared by any firm of lawyers,
14reputable lawyers, on the book before it was published?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All I can say is that I did not see any such report.
16I cannot answer as to whether there was one or not.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I am not going to be allowed to ask him questions about
18intermarriage then, am I?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, I am not quite sure I understand what
20the intended question is.
21 MR IRVING: Well, following through the question of whether
22Jews would be expected to live by a different set of rules
23than those that they criticise? If I am criticised here
24for the racist ditty once again, as I have been, am
25I entitled in some way to introduce evidence about what
26the Second Defendant has written herself on precisely this
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: About intermarriage?
3 MR IRVING: About intermarriage, and if so, can I do it now?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite difficult to answer that question
5without knowing what it is you are going to produce. Have
6you got a copy of it because, perhaps if you would be good
7enough to hand it in and then I can perhaps look at it
8over the adjournment and you can come back to it?
9 MR IRVING: There were several articles which the Second
10Defendant has written in this respect. I will yellow
11highlight the only part that your Lordship should read.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but do you mind coming back to it later
13when I have had a chance to look at it?
14 MR IRVING: Yes. I would like to put to you Professor Levin's
15report now which is at page 125.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry. Mine only has 123 pages.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Levin or Eatwell?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Levin.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So does mine.
20 MR IRVING: Oh, dear! This is covering the diary entries for
211995. It is paragraph 11.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] OK. I think I can find it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I am just going to take one sample paragraph?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is around 108, I think.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes paragraph 11.
26 MR IRVING: Beginning with "Irving was also".
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Ah, no.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Covering the diary entries for 1995.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am afraid I cannot find it.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I cannot.
5 MR RAMPTON: We are looking for it in our bundle.
6 MR IRVING: This question goes purely to the accuracy of
7Professor Levin's style of extracting the diaries.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Ah, right.
9 MR RAMPTON: There is a paragraph 11 on page 107, my Lord.
10 MR IRVING: Beginning "Irving was also"?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think it does.
12 MR RAMPTON: No, it is not that.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have it here. It is at page 102, paragraph 11:
14"Irving was also forced to confront various incidents",
15is that it?
16 MR IRVING: Yes.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The Key West landlady evicted him from her hotel, etc.,
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Would you carry on down to the next item, please?
20"Irving's April 13th diary entry recounts his displeasure
21at having his name mentioned 'in the most disparaging
22terms in half a dozen places' along with supposed errors
23in an official Canadian government report."
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with that so-called official Canadian
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to ask that bundle E should be put to you.
3There is a bundle called "Global". Do we have a copy?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know the one.
5 MR IRVING: Let us see if we can find. It is page 116 of that
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In E, has the witness got E?
8 MR IRVING: It is a very long document beginning at page 116,
9headed with the words: "Confidential. David Irving,
10biographical information". You see at page 116? I am
11just taking this paragraph as one sample in advance, a
12foretaste, of the problems with the Levin report. So that
13is a document, a pretty lengthy document, headed with the
14words "Confidential. David Irving, biographical
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] And that document, as we know from an affidavit by
18Mr Michael Wein of the Board of Deputies in this country,
19which his Lordship probably finds quicker than I do, was
20put, in fact, it was furnished to the Canadian government
21by this British body, would you accept that? It was
22furnished to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Canada when
23they requested dirt on me to prevent me entering Canada?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Assume it.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will assume it. I mean, I do find it very difficult to
26answer questions on other people's reports. The reason
1why there is a number of different expert witnesses for
2the Defence in this case is to assist the court in a
3number of different areas because no one person is
4competent to deal with them all.
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Did you recommend Professor Levin?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say, I am not an expert on the Canadian
7government and ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, can I explain to you
9(because you may not know this) the difficulty? Mr Irving
10is representing himself. I am, therefore, giving him what
11I hope is appropriate but quite a good degree of
12latitude. He is accused of various things, like racism
13and anti-Semitism. He has been cross-examined vigorously
14on that topic. The Defendants had experts who produced
15great long reports, as you know, dealing with those topics
16and the Defendants have decided not to call them.
17 Mr Irving is, therefore, in the position of
18being the subject of the criticisms that they make of him,
19albeit no longer part of the Defendants' formal case, and
20he wishes to put one or two points to you as being
21somebody who is there to be shot at, as it were. I have
22decided that it is proper that he should do so.
23 I think he may be spending rather long on it
24than I had hoped, but I am going to let him do that. So,
25for the purposes of this part of the cross-examination,
26will you assume that the Canadians got hold of this
1document in the way he suggests?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes, my Lord.
3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I am sympathetic with your concern.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I hope you will accept that I do find it very difficult.
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I understand it, but you understand, I hope, why ----
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sure, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- I am not going to stop these questions?
8 MR RAMPTON: I should add perhaps, my Lord, it is not quite
9true that we are not calling any such people. We are
10calling Professor Funke from Berlin.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot remember now what he deals with.
12 MR RAMPTON: He deals with exactly for Germany with what
13Eatwell deals with for this country and Levin for the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But is he going to say when he comes, "Oh,
16well, I cannot deal with this sort of Canadian stuff
17because I am dealing with Germany".
18 MR RAMPTON: That, I do not know -- very likely.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the problem.
20 MR RAMPTON: I am not in any sense trying to argue with what
21your Lordship just said. I just thought it necessary to
22add the gloss that, so far as anything to do with Germany
23is concerned, there will be a witness.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I had actually forgotten that, but
25thank you very much. But let us take this relatively
26briefly, but I am not stopping you.
1 MR IRVING: Professor, is it correct that you recommended
2Professor Levin for this particular task?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You did not?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with Professor Levin at all?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] If you read this paragraph, you will see that it says, he
9has extracted from my diaries which had been in front of
10him exactly as they had been in front of you, and in
11paragraph he says: "Irving's April 13th 1995 diary entry
12recounts his displeasure of having his name mentioned 'in
13the most disparaging terms in half a dozen places' along
14with supposed errors in an official Canadian government
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It says that, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] He says that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He does.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it not have been correct for him to point out that,
20in fact, what I am objecting to is the fact that this is a
21British document that has been planted in Canadian
22government files by this body in England for whatever
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really cannot answer that, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] He then continues to say: "On June 11th while in Key
26West, Irving states in his diaries that a fine for
1thousands of francs by a French court for his public
2statements was going to 'various greedy Jewish bodies'"?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He says that.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] He says that. In other words, I did write those words in
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He says that you did, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] And if I were to tell that you the fine of 1,000 French
8francs, or whatever it was, thousands of French francs,
9was imposed on me for having an interview in my home in
10London with a French journalist in which I made a true
11statement, would that justify some kind of outburst in my
12diaries, do you think?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, there again you would have to show me the documents,
14you would have to show me the diary. I find it very
15difficult to comment on this single sentence in the report
16that I did not write and that I am not very familiar with.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] But he appears to have accurately quoted that I wrote in
18the diaries a reference to various greedy Jewish bodies,
19and he is obviously pointing to that as possibly an
20example of Anti-Semitism?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a bit difficult, I think, for Professor
22Evans to deal with that unless he has a word perfect
23memory of what you wrote in your diaries.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Which I do not. I do not have all your 30 million words in
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think your best way of dealing with this,
1Mr Irving, is (if you want to) to deal with it as a matter
2of submission. You have all the documents.
3 MR IRVING: Can I deal with one more point, and then I will
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
6 MR IRVING: The final passage concerns the July 31 1995 diary
7recounting a letter that I sent to the Sunday Times -- I
8am sorry, to a major Sunday newspaper, is that correct?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] And the newspaper concerned had stated that "Irving quoted
11by Griffin'", do you know a book by Griffin on faschism?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] "'... Irving writes in the Mein Kampf idiom: "I combat
14Jewry not as a religion but as a race ... a solution to
15the Jewish problem must come".'"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It looks here as if it is Griffin who writes in the Mein
17Kampf idiom. I presume that is a grammatical mistake.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but, in fact, the actual article said that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not the other, the other Griffin.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that this is an extremely loaded thing for
21me allegedly to have said, "I combat Jewry not as a
22religion but as a race ... a solution to the Jewish
23problem must come", but if I had written that, it would be
24perverse and unforgivable and I would deserve whatever
25came to me?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can I just read you the next two sentences? "In his
1letter Irving denied ever making that statement".
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "The Hitler chronicler remarkably stated, 'I have never
4read Mein Kampf".
5 Q. [Mr Irving] But, of course, I am called a denier, am I not, and my
6denials are not worth very much? That is what the whole
7of this case is about.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where in this paragraph does he say that?
9 Q. [Mr Irving] The word "denial" figures very strongly in this case.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I get out of this is that on this
11particular point Professor Levin really does not make much
12of a case.
13 MR IRVING: I am taking one paragraph here, my Lord ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is quoting a statement that he attributes
15to you ----
16 MR IRVING: --- in which I am showing that sentence after
17sentence after sentence ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow the point.
19 MR IRVING: And the particular point I want to make on that, my
20Lord, as your Lordship is probably familiar, the major
21Sunday newspaper had to pay me a six figure sum in damages
22because of that particular allegation. There is no
23reference whatsoever to that in the ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think much of that -- I mean,
25the point that Professor Levin makes there, I do not think
26much of it.
1 MR IRVING: But the reason I am saying that, of course, is to
2give your Lordship a foretaste of what I would have said,
3had I been able to sink my teeth into Professor Levin when
4the time came.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that, but I think perhaps the best
6time to do that is later on, not now.
7 MR IRVING: You worked for many years in Germany, is that
8correct, Professor? Five years in Germany?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On and off, yes, over the years. I have been going to
10Germany for shorter and extended periods since 1970.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And you have worked a great deal in the German archives?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] For your book on capital punishment?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And other books, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] And you have worked a great deal in the Nazi archives, I
16mean the records of the Nazi period, the Third Reich?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Less so, but I have done work mainly in the Ministry of
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Ministry of Justice files?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And in regional archives.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Who was the Minister of Justice -- Guttner?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Guttner until 1941, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Until he died and then Schlegelberger took over?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Acting Minister, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Took over as acting Minister. Are you familiar at all,
26have you researched at all, on the files of the SS? The
1Himmler files, Schiffbootverlastung of Himmler, and so on?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I am familiar with the Dienst Tagebuch, I have to say
3mainly for the purposes of this case.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You had to read it, in other words, had to look into it?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I had to look at it, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You would recognize the Himmler documents if you saw them
7either in photocopy or in the original, would you? You
8would know what their layout was? This is what I am
9getting at. We have heard a certain amount of discussion
10in court about what -- do they all have a kind of standard
11layout and kind of address on the right and ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That I could not say.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Could not say. So your expertise then does not
14really extend into document analysis, shall I say, looking
15at the document and saying to yourself, how high up is
16this document, or who is it written by, or is it authentic
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think I have a general expertise in reading documents,
19yes, but I am not a specialist in the SS or its archive.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Would I be right in saying that very rarely would one
21expect to come across a forged document either in the
22Bundesarchiv or in the British archives? Have you ever
23come across an instance where a document has had
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Those are two rather different things. I think that with
26a forged document you need to be very clear about why it
1is forged, who has forged it, and why, what the motives
2might have been and what kind of opportunity they had.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] My question was, have you ever come across a forged
4document in one of the western archives, in the United
5States or in Britain or in Germany?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Would you like to tell me what you mean by a "forged
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, a document that was clearly not written during the
9war years and has been inserted there for some ulterior
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not what it purports to be?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not what it purports to be.
13 MR IRVING: Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not to my recollection, no.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I have to say I have not either. Would you have the same
16expectations of Eastern European archives?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is a very difficult question to answer. I have
18worked in East German archives, but one has to -- I mean,
19both in the Communist Socialist Unity Party archives and
20in the archives of East German Communist Ministries, but
21also, of course, as you know, the major German State
22archive, the Reich archive, was in East Germany for many
23years, and my impression of that and other State archives
24is that they were somewhat neglected. So I do not -- and
25that they were run by professional archivists. It is a
26rather different matter working in Party archives or as I
1did on one occasion in the East ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you ever work in the Moscow archives?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not worked in the Moscow archives.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you ever worked in any other Eastern European
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, just in East German archives.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] From your knowledge as an historian, do you know of
8instances where documents have been forged by Eastern
9European archives for Cold War purposes in order to sink a
10West German Minister or something like that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not from my direct knowledge of archival material, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar at all, have you read the newspapers
13about the Demjanjuk case, Ivan Demjanjuk?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I followed it as any other citizen, newspaper reader, did,
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it be correct to say that at one stage he was
17incriminated on the basis of an identity card which later
18turned out to have been forged?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not an expert in this area, Mr Irving. I mean,
20I will accept for the purposes of argument that that was
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you suggested anywhere in your report that I have
23gained improper advantages because of my Nazi or neo-Nazi
24views from members of Hitler staff in obtaining records or
25papers that they would not have made available to other...
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think I -- I certainly did not use the word
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, that I had an edge on the others?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I may well have done so, yes, because that seems to me
4that in some way that you were more acceptable to the
5former members' widows and so on of Hitler's entourage
6than other historians were.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have any basis for that, apart from just envy?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think I am envious of you, Mr Irving.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] But, I mean, the fact that I got hold of records that the
10historical establishment did not get must have aroused a
11certain amount of envy and acrimony?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in me.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Not in you. You referred to it in this oblique way in
14your expert report -- I cannot put my finger on the actual
15passage -- you admitted or you stated that, yes, you had
16implied that I had benefited from my aura?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am just trying to find the passages where I deal with
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Perhaps I can continue just by asking in general terms.
20You have read a lot transcripts of my interviews with
21Hitler's staff, the Adjutants, we call them, is that
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] And you may have heard tape recordings of some of them,
25because the tape recordings have all survived, 30 years
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have read the transcripts. I have not heard the tape
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you see any material in those transcripts to support
4the belief that I had benefited in some way from my aura
5as a neo-Nazi or as a fascist or whatever I am called?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What I actually say is ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On page 604, paragraph 8, as you explain, "'I have
9interviewed scores of the principal German officers and
10personnel involved, including many of Hitler's close staff
11who have hitherto refused to talk to anybody, but who felt
12able to talk at length to me because of the nature of my
13previous books "The Destruction of Dresden" etc.'."
14 MR IRVING: Yes.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And I quote the Journal of Historical Review again, saying
16that "'numerous survivors of the Second World War era who
17are often mistrustful (often with good reason) of
18establishment historians' are willing to talk to you".
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And another quote here from you: "'Once they'd won your
21confidence and they knew you weren't going to report them
22to the state prosecutor, they trusted you. And they
23thought, well, now at last they were doing their
24chief's'", that is Hitler, "'a service'."
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is you, is it not?
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this in any sense improper, do you think?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not use the word "improper".
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not a fact that by using this non-confrontational
4method of interviewing people you sometimes wheedle more
5out of them over the years than if one was to go there
6with all the methods of a Fleet Street journalist,
7cheating them the moment they had given the information
8and ridiculing them? That my method in the long term
9resulted in a much greater benefit for the historical
10community because I extracted the information, the data
11from them, is that not a fact, by using my methods?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I do not know accept your rather harsh verdict on
13Fleet Street journalists and you would have to show me
14some examples of what they had done but ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not let us worry about that.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But, that aside ----
17 MR IRVING: The Swabians say zote und zote(?).
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- do not dispute, Mr Irving, that you have obtained a
19lot of information which other people have not obtained.
20 MR IRVING: Are you familiar with the collections of documents
21that I donated to the West German government and also to
22the Institute of History in Munich?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I know that you have donated collections of documents,
24yes, and I am familiar with some parts of them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] And that historian around the world have frequently made
26use of these collections of documents?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They have been used by other historians, indeed, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that many of these documents are of high
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are of a variable value, but some are valuable, yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] The curate's egg, we used to say?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is a mixed bag -- as any collection of documents.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. There are some very high grade private diaries of
8Hitler's private staff which nobody else has ever seen
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, and which you have published. I am not disputing any
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, people take with the one hand what they
13like about me, but with the other hand they are quite
14happy to ridicule me and smear me in public as a racist
15and Anti-Semite because they do not like the way I write
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not really a question.
18 MR IRVING: Have you read the review that Professor Martin
19Broszat wrote of my book "Hitler's War" in the quarterly
20Journal of the Institute of Contemporary History?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I am familiar with it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a pretty corrosive review in parts, is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar that there were personal reasons why
25Professor Martin Broszat would want to write corrosively
26about something I had written?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that, well, not personally, but you claim that
2there are. I am familiar with your allegation that there
4 Q. [Mr Irving] If he married a lady ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before we go on, I do not know
6what you are getting at.
7 MR IRVING: I am going to keep it very low profile, my Lord.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What possible relevance has the malice of
9somebody who has reviewed one of your books got to the
11 MR IRVING: Because the review written by Professor Martin
12Broszat is very heavily relied on by all the expert
13witnesses as evidence of my perversity and, for example,
14that is the origin of the Hitler's Table Talk distortion.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can see the experts might share Professor
16Broszat's view of your historiography, but it is the
17expert's own opinion that accounts.
18 MR IRVING: You know how one little shout brings down the
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] May I make two points there? One is that I have
21reinvestigated, as it were, reresearched, all the points
22made by Professor Broszat so that I am not reliant on what
23he says. The second point is I can direct you to my
24answer to your 11th question in the first set that you
25sent on 30th December.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] I have not read it.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "If Broszat had personal motives for criticising Irving's
2work, these may help explain why he did so, but they do
3not of themselves invalidate the criticisms which have to
4be dealt with on their own terms".
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware of the fact that Professor Broszat refused
6to allow me any space to reply in that learned journal?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will take your word for it that that was the case,
8though is it normal in that particular journal that ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whether it is or it is not, I do not think we
10are going to stay long with Professor Broszat.
11 MR IRVING: Very well. Are you familiar with a document known
12as the Leuchter report, or have you heard of it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read it in any detail or are you familiar
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have looked through it, yes. I am not an expert on
17Auschwitz, Mr Irving, but I have looked through it, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the fact that other documents
19superceded the Leuchter report, both written by
20revisionists and by anti-revisionists, if I can put it
21like that? There were subsequent investigations.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you heard of the Rudolf report?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] The report by Germar Rudolf.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have heard of that, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you refer to the Germar Rudolf report in any of your
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] To be honest, I am not quite sure. Certainly not in any
4detail. My report is not about Auschwitz.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] If I could be fairly criticised for having relied entirely
6on the Leuchter report, does it not take the sting out of
7a lot of that criticism, in your view, that subsequent
8reports which were also available to me did the Leuchter
9job but better, if I can put it like that?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really cannot comment on that, Mr Irving. I thought
11this had been gone through in Professor van Pelt's report
12and in your cross-examination of him. My concern is not
13with Auschwitz. I am not an expert on these matters.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] The tactical reason I have for putting this to you is that
15my friends tell me that I have not hammered this into his
16Lordship's consciousness enough?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, to leave me out of it in that case if you are -- if
18you are doing the hammering, I will get out of the way in
19that particular one.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Forgive me. What has not penetrated my ----
21 MR IRVING: I am sure it has now, my Lord, because it is now in
22the transcript, purely that the Leuchter report was
23superseded by other reports on which I also relied in
24continuing to make the statements that I did.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I knew you relied on later reports, yes.
26That I had understood.
1 MR IRVING: There is no harm in repetition, is there?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Within reason, no. Anyway, I just wanted to
3make sure I knew what you thought I had not understood.
4 MR IRVING: What do you think of Mr Kershaw as an historian on
5Adolf Hitler, Ian Kershaw, Professor Kershaw?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think he is a good historian.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] A good historian? If I tell you that he declined to
8testify for us in my case here because his knowledge of
9German was totally insufficient, would that change your
10opinion of the books he writes about the leader of the
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You would have to provide me with a copy of the document
13in which he says that before I could accept that that is
14what he said.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] You quote Robert Harris in the book "Selling Hitler" on
16paragraph 2.4.8 of your report?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Give me the page number, please.
18 MR IRVING: I do not have the page number in front of me.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had it just a moment ago, did we not? Was
20it 700 or 600 and something?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Much earlier, I think, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can find it on the transcript.
23 MR IRVING: We have time, my Lord, because I have come to the
24end of my prepared questions on this topic and it may be
25your Lordship will not want me to ask questions about
26bundle E which is what I was proposing to do afterwards.
1 MS ROGERS: 212.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 212. Yes. I remember 212. Ask this and
3then we will consider bundle E.
4 MR IRVING: Paragraph 248. You quote Robert Harris in "Selling
5Hitler", "when the forensic tests shortly afterwards
6revealed the Hitler diaries definitively as fakes, Irving
7issued a statement accepting the finding but drawing
8attention to the fact that he had been the first person to
9unmask them as forged". Do you remember that passage?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It is not the one we have here.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] 2.4.8?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is much earlier on, I think.
13 MS ROGERS: 39.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
15 MR IRVING: "Irving issued a statement accepting the forgery
16finding but drawing attention to the fact that he had been
17the first person to unmask them as forged. 'Yes', said a
18reporter from The Times" I am quoting from your report,
19"when this was read out to him, 'and the last person to
20declare them authentic'." Do you remember that passage?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have got that, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it not have been more accurate to write that this
23was Robert Harris quoting me as saying that rather than me
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is footnoted, Mr Irving. Footnote 26 refers to
26"Harris, Selling Hitler, page 359". So it is perfectly
1clear that it is Harris.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] But it is reported speech?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, it is in Harris's book. It is quite clear in my
4book that it is in Harris's book.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Reverting to standards on anti-Semitism, what do you
6know about the statements made by leading politicians on
7the Jews during the war? Were they anti-Semitic in any
8degree, people like Winston Churchill or Anthony Eadon or
9Lord Halifax? Are you familiar with any of the things
10that they said?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] No. I just want to put to you a little clip of extracts
13that I made from some of their private diaries, and I do
14not propose to read these out.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you just help me ----
16 MR IRVING: It is headed: "Anti-Semitism in the diaries".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- as to their relevance?
18 MR IRVING: The relevance? It is arguable, my Lord. I was
19going to say on a scale of 1 to 10 is Lord Halifax mildly
20anti-Semitic if these ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but what if he is? I mean, help me about
23 MR IRVING: Then the question I was going to say is on the
24scale of what you know from my private diaries, what
25number do I reach? 1, 0.5?
26 MR RAMPTON: I mean, the fact that these well-known people are,
1as I can plainly see, having looked at some of this stuff,
2guilty of the same kind of blatant anti-Semitism as
3Mr Irving takes us nowhere.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a "so what?" point really?
5 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is a "so what?" point with a big question
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That must be right, must it not, Mr Irving?
8I mean, the charge is made against you of anti-Semitism.
9That may or may not be justified. It may be partly
10justified, I do not know. That is something I have got to
12 MR IRVING: But if I was told that I was only one-tenth as
13anti-Semetic as somebody as respectable as Anthony Eadon,
14for example, or as Lord Halifax, then I would be able to
15sleep more peacefully at night, than when I read in the
16newspapers that I am the bogey man in the nursery.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am afraid I take the view that we
18have to decide what anti-Semitism consists of, first of
19all, and then I have got to look and see what you have
20said and written and decide whether that constitutes
21anti-Semitism or is evidence of anti-Semitism.
22 MR IRVING: I tried to get an explanation from the witness
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not helped by knowing what -- I mean,
25times have changed, apart from anything else.
26 MR IRVING: I wholeheartedly agree, my Lord. Times have
1definitely changed in this respect and they have changed
2for the better.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I must judge you by the standards of perhaps
4not 2000, but the standards at the times when you made the
5remarks you did make which is usually in the 80s and 90s.
6 MR IRVING: But we have a problem here. I have tried to
7extract from the witness a definition of his criteria for
8the anti-Semitism that he accuses me of.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Perfectly proper.
10 MR IRVING: And we have received only waffle, if I may put it
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you can say that later, but do not say
13it now. It is unhelpful.
14 MR IRVING: And I have tried to ask for what specific instances
15of anti-Semitism he has found in my private diaries which,
16surely, are the closest to my state of mind, and we have
17found five words, I think.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He said it has not really been his pigeon.
19He is here for other matters. You do not have to accept
20that answer, but it is his evidence.
21 MR IRVING: But the charge is levelled, my Lord, at me by this
22witness and by the others and it is a charge that people
23very happily make. I say that the charge of anti-Semitism
24is the last resort of the scoundrel, very frequently, and
25it is one that sticks, rather like being called a
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do not seek to dispute that at this
2stage, but what we are on at the moment, Mr Irving, is
3whether you are entitled to adduce effectively in
4evidence, through the cross-examination of Professor
5Evans, alleged anti-Semitism on the part of Lord Halifax
6and Winston Churchill, and I think that is wholly
8 MR IRVING: Impermissible, very well. Can I at least then
9adduce evidence that the First Defendant has published
10books which contain grossly anti-Semitic passages?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not admit -- why do you say that is
13 MR IRVING: Biblical passage.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a sort of pot calling the kettle black.
15 MR IRVING: Casting the mote out of their own eye first and
16referring it to John Buchan's '39 Steps', for example.
17I am sure your Lordship is familiar with them. They are
18the most appalling passages.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are clutching at a bit of a straw there,
20are you not? When was that published?
21 MR IRVING: Not recently, but John Buchan became Governor
22General of Canada.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to give you a lot of latitude,
24Mr Irving. I think I am perhaps beginning to give you too
25much. I really just do not think you can just start going
26into alleged anti-Semitism on the part of other people, or
2 MR IRVING: The Defendants in this case have published books
3which are anti-Semitic in my submission and yet -- I will
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me hear Mr Rampton on that because ----
6 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is a kind of insanity. I feel as
7though I was in one of Lewis Caroll's book. Mr Irving
8brought this action in respect of words published by my
9clients. The only defence is that what is said is true,
10amongst them that Mr Irving is an anti-Semitic. What can
11it matter that there may have been some author from the
12distant past, the 39 Steps, who also, on some occasion,
13might have made a remark as an anti-Semite?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wholly agree about John Buchan in the
151930s, or whenever it was.
16 MR RAMPTON: Suppose my client has published the works of an
17anti-Semite yesterday. How could it bear upon the
18question of whether or not Mr Irving is an anti-Semite,
19save to the extent that I then stood up and said: "Well
20that Penguin book is not anti-Semitic"?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right. I am trying to give
22Mr Irving the benefit of the doubt, but Mr Irving, I
23cannot let this thing ----
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, we bought a copy of this book published by
25Penguin Books two days ago at Books Et Cetera.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If your odds are still on John Buchan, then
1that is really absolutely, if I may say so, hopeless as a
3 MR IRVING: Should political correctness not have required them
4to at least excise these horrendous passages from that
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Mr Irving, I am afraid we are going to
7have to move on. I am against you on this.
8 MR IRVING: Are you familiar with the Holocaust, Professor
9Evans? Are you familiar with the bibliography on
10Holocaust Denial which has been prepared by a specialist
11in this matter, New York City University John Drobniski,
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say not very, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that there is such a bibliography?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a bibliography that is available on the Internet,
17would you accept that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] It has gone through several editions?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] And this bibliography -- is it called Holocaust Denial
22Literature -- is a bibliography?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is true, yes, to my recollection.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it compiled by John A Drobniski, D-R-O-B-N-I-S-K-I, in
25conjunction with Carol Goldman and two or three others?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is right, but I have to say I am not very
1familiar with this bibliography.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] If I tell you, therefore, that my name does not figure in
3this entire bibliography as having published a Holocaust
4Denial work, would this surprise you in the view of the
5expert report that you have written? Is that a proper
6question, my Lord?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I did not compile the bibliography. I am not
9answerable for what they think or they do not think.
10I reached my own conclusions about this in my report.
11 MR IRVING: You accept that he is Professor John Drobniski,
12Assistant Professor and Reference Librarian at York
13College in the City University of New York?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you say he is, yes, I accept that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] And that his bibliography contains many thousands of
16entries of books, journals, learned papers and articles?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I do not really want to speculate about it, but you
18have yourself said that the Holocaust has always been a
19rather peripheral element in what you have written
20yourself, so in a way, it would not be surprising if
21somebody wanted to draw up a bibliography of works to
22which Holocaust Denial was central.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yet I am the one who is pilloried in the book by the
24Second Defendant and published by the first Defendants in
25this case, and Yehuda Bauer, as we know from the document
26which is before the court, specifically requested the
1second Defendant to ensure that I was included because
2I was particularly dangerous?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is my impression, having read the second
4Defendant's book very carefully, that you figure only
5relatively peripherally in that, too, and it does not
6devote a great deal of space to you in your work.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] I think, my Lord, that if we may take the lunch
8adjournment very shortly, then I will come back this
9afternoon and we will go as far as your Lordship permits
10through the bundle of documents which is known to your
11Lordship as Global.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to consider how much you can go
13into, because I have not looked through bundle E yet, but
14I am conscious we have not really made a huge amount of
15progress this morning so far.
16 MR IRVING: Well, I have been stopped in my tracks dead by the
17delivery last night of these 200 pages of answers.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If that is so, I am not sure that is a
19complete explanation, but if that is so, well so be it.
20What are you proposing to do with the rest of bundle E,
21that is really the point?
22 MR IRVING: To step through it, picking out key documents to
23indicate and to ask his opinion as to whether this does
24not indicate that there has been a concerted endeavour to
25suppress my rights to publish and to write, to research
26and to lecture.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: By the one or other of the Defendants?
2 MR IRVING: By one or other of the Defendant and in the light
3of his own expert knowledge.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about the latter bit.
5 MR RAMPTON: I really do have a reservation about this. It is
6not my place to make comments about the latitude that your
7Lordship has so far given, Mr Irving. I have a place,
8however, to say something if I see the afternoon wasted
9away with this witness, who is a professional historian,
10being asked questions about what hand the Defendant might
11or might not have had in the international Jewish
12conspiracy to shut Mr Irving up. That is not something
13that Professor Evans has written about. So, for all
14I know, he knows nothing about it. If there is one
15question: "Do you know anything about it"?, and he is
16allowed to answer it now and he says, "No", then that is
17the end of the matter.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Leave aside whether it is right for Professor
19Evans to be asked questions about this because that,
20I agree, is something that we have to tackle, but just
21supposing for the sake of argument that it is right, that
22one of the Defendants has been trying, in some way, to
23sabotage Mr Irving, it does not matter in what way, can
24you say that is wholly irrelevant?
25 MR RAMPTON: No, I did not say that. I said that it is not a
26proper matter for the cross-examination of this witness.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You see, I am anxious, and Mr Irving is
2anxious obviously, that he should not be, as it were, shut
3out from making this point. I think the best way of
4dealing with it is to let him make it as a matter of
5submission by reference to the documents in bundle E.
6 MR RAMPTON: Of course I agree with that. It is only relevant,
7of course, if we should lose the action.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, but it is relevant.
9 MR RAMPTON: Just as a matter of hypothesis we did, then it
10would be relevant quite likely, some way of wounding or
11something, I do not know. I have not really thought about
12it. The right thing for him to have done, but he did not
13do it, was to give evidence about it in-chief and then
14make submissions about at the end of the case by reference
15to the document.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would be inclined to let him give further
18 MR RAMPTON: I am not going to insist on it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If that is the right way. It can be done as
20a matter of submission, as far as I am concerned.
21 MR RAMPTON: Equally, as far as I am concerned.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, the argument against that ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What do you say about that?
24 MR IRVING: Although I hear what Mr Rampton says about I should
25have done it as evidence-in-chief, but your Lordship will
26remember clearly that we were only informed two days ago
1that they were not going to call Professor Levin or
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not, if I may say so, an answer to
4the point that has just been made. You do not know your
5way around the law, perhaps, as well as some, but the
6answer is that this evidence all goes to damage and the
7only person, or broadly speaking the only person who can
8give evidence about damage, is the Claimant, yourself.
9 MR IRVING: Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it is really a matter for your own
11evidence. I do not think it is a helpful use of the
12court's time, or indeed Professor Evans's time, to take
13him through a whole lot of documents which he would
14probably not really be able to make much of anyway, when
15really it is for you to make the points you want to make
16in your evidence, and Mr Rampton is not contesting your
17entitlement to add to the evidence you have already given,
18so I think that is a better way of dealing with it.
19 MR IRVING: Very well. Shall I do that this afternoon then.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You would rather break off now? I am easy
22 MR IRVING: I think it would make it an appropriate place to
23break off now.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it is a natural break, let us do that, but
25I think this afternoon let us move on beyond bundle E and
26you can come back to that, whatever turns out to be a
1convenient moment. Shall we adjourn now and return at a
2quarter to two.
3 (1.45 p.m.)
5Professor Evans, recalled.
6Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
7 MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord. There is one minor point
8I wanted to pick up from remarks that Mr Rampton made
9shortly towards the end where he referred to black
10servants. My Lord, you may remember the phrase.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not remember.
12 MR IRVING: The phrase he used is black servants and this may
13be indicative of the mind cast on that side of the
14courtroom. I certainly do not regard blacks as servants.
15They were my equals. I employed these Pakistanis, Indians
16Sri Lankans and so on as research assistants and personal
17assistants. They were not servants in any kind of menial
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
20 MR IRVING: Witness, you may have heard me described by
21Professor Donald Watt and others as Britain's most
22disliked historian. Does that surprise you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you direct me to where he actually said that?
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Very well. We can move straight on to the next question.
25You do not like me, do you?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have no personal feelings about you at all, Mr Irving.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] I think we have seen this morning and from a number of
2your remarks that you dislike what I write, you dislike
3what I stand for, you dislike what you perceive my views
4to be. Is this correct?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not have any person feelings at all. I was simply
6asked to write a report, which I have done, about your
7writings and speeches.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well ----
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have tried to be as objective as possible.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes of course.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And to leave any personal feelings I might possibly have
12out of it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] There are a number of remarks which are now a matter of
14record on this morning's transcript, which indicate that
15you hold strong personal views which are antipathetic
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Such as?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, they are a matter of record and I am sure that the
19court is familiar with them and this is why there was a
20rather astonished chuckle when you said that you held no
21views about me from those who had been listening to you
22this morning. You are aware of the fact of course, having
23written an expert report, that you have a duty to
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Absolutely. That is described in the last paragraph of my
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Precisely. I was beginning to express astonishment of
2that fact and that is why I asked the question because
3I had the impression from this morning's answers to the
4questions that you were averse to answering questions and
5that you held something bordering between distaste and
6loathing towards me and the books I write or the views
7that you perceive me to hold?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not at all. But it is the fact that I do find it very
9difficult to answer questions about reports written by
10other people. I am here to answer questions about my own
12 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that, when you went to the British Museum Reading
13Room, you asked for a copy of my book Hitler's War, and it
14was not in the public shelves. Is that correct?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. It was on the public shelves.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] It was on the public shelves?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I mean as I say, it was available to everybody who
18had access to the British library.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] I remind you of your words?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is the new British Library.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] I remind you of your words in your report where you say
22that the 1991 edition of Hitler's War can only be read at
23the desk in the Rare Books Room. What justification did
24they offer for that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, none at all. I am not responsible for their
26classification. I have to say that, when I asked to read
1it, the library assistant in a somewhat astonished manner
2said to me that it had to be read on the desk reserved for
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the relevance of that to your report?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I say it in my report.
6 MR IRVING: Page 15 of his report, my Lord, paragraph 154.
7I am not relying on the pornography aspect, my Lord, as
8your Lordship will appreciate.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is an extremely minor and peripheral point. I am not
10suggesting for a moment that it was pornographic, but it
11is a matter of fact that, when I consulted it, that is
12where I had to read it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you infer from that rather curious episode that what
14has been a very widely reviewed and widely praised work of
15history should have been placed by the museum in a
16reserved section where it can only be read with special
17application. Could that possibly be the result of some
18kind of campaign or endeavour by third parties, do you
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me say first of all that I do not think that your
211991 -- correct me if I am wrong -- edition of Hitler's
22War has been widely reviewed and widely praised.
23Secondly, I have no idea why I had to read it on that
24particular desk. Let me say if it helps you ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not bothered about that at all,
26Professor. I am just puzzled why you included it in your
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Little bit of light relief, my Lord, to be honest.
3I thought it was a minor detail that struck me as being
4rather odd, that I just put in to make the report a little
5bit more readable. I do not attach any weight or
6importance to it. If it helps you at all, I really do not
7understand why they have done it. I cannot speculate on
8why they have done it. It did not seem to me worth
9pursuing the matter. I could read it. Anybody can read
10it. It is not restricted.
11 MR IRVING: You appreciate that it must have taken an objective
12action by someone, a positive step by someone, to
13recommend that the book should be taken from the normal
14shelves and placed into a reserved limited access section?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not really limited access, to be honest. It is just
16that you have to read it in a certain place. My
17experience of the British Library's policy on these
18matters is somewhat haphazard. It is not terribly
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have page 15?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have read it.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I suggest that, if you wish to pursue this, you should do
23so with the British Library.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have pursued it as far as it is
26 MR IRVING: I am going to pursue it to the next sentence, my
1Lord, which is: "Secondly, Irving has published a number
2of articles mainly in the Journal of Historical Review".
3Do you still stand by that statement?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. That follows on from the material on which this
5report is based, consisting in the first place of Irving's
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that I have not published one article in the
8Journal of Historical Review?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, Mr Irving. Your journals are widely available
10in the Journal of Historical Review. I have read the
11Journal of Historical Review and there are many articles
12of yours there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you referring to transcripts of talks that I have
14delivered which have then been transcribed by
15the Institute and then published?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are there as articles, indeed, yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: I was just saying to my junior that, if this line
18of cross-examination continues without Mr Irving's
19revealing to the witness the full extent of the way in
20which those articles are published in the Journal of
21Historical Review, I am going to intervene.
22 MR IRVING: I think that my question, as it was put, was quite
23proper, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So do I, and re-examination is always an
25opportunity to follow up these things.
26 MR IRVING: In other words, you do accept that I have never
1written an article for the Journal of Historical Review,
2it is however correct that they have published transcripts
3in the way that learned journals also do of people's talks
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not accept that the Journal of Historical Review is a
7 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not say so, of course.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But I would have thought that they would have obtained
9your permission to put the transcripts there and that you
10would have had the opportunity to revise them before they
11went in there, and that therefore you were agreeable to
12their appearing there as articles.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. On page 17 you refer to various bones of contention
14that you are going to pick in the first paragraph, the
15fourth line, to Irving's use of the evidence of Hitler's
16Adjutants. Undoubtedly I am going to be cross-examined on
17this matter, I believe so. I do not really want to go
18into very much detail about that until we come to it in
19the appropriate part of your report, but you do attach
20great importance to the fact, do you not, that you think
21I made a wrong use of what these members of Hitler's
22private staff told me?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that you are going to be
24cross-examined because my understanding is that----
25 MR RAMPTON: I said that on the whole I did not think it
26terribly likely, but I did say, if I was going to, I would
1mention it. There may be just a couple of points.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought I could short circuit this.
3 MR RAMPTON: I am certainly not going to do it at any length
4because I do not believe I need to.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right, Mr Irving, it is part of the
6case. I thought it was not but it is.
7 MR IRVING: It appears to be in a kind of limbo where it might
8be sprung on me at a later date. When we come to that
9point in Professor Evans' expert report, than in that case
10I shall have to deal with it seriatim. Can I address your
11attention to page 19 of your report, Professor Evans?
12Half way down the page, at the end of that paragraph,
13paragraph 161, you conclude by saying: "We have not
14suppressed any occasion on which Irving has used accepted
15and legitimate methods of historical research, exposition
16and interpretation. There were none." That is a very
17sweeping statement it make, is it not?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I should qualify that by saying there wee none in
19the material we examined.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] None at all? I have never used historical material in the
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in the material we examined, no.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I can see his Lordship frowning.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just puzzled by that. What material did
25you examine? It seems to me you cannot have known what to
26go to unless you have looked at the whole lot.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] In the cases that we examined. I explain in the
2introduction to this report. Clearly we had 18 months to
3go through 30 years' of Mr Irving's work and so it was not
4possible to go through the whole lot in its entirety. So
5we had to be selective. I explain in the report the
6principles on which we selected the material, which was
7not going for the weak points but trying to go for his
8strongest arguments, and in those areas we did not find
9occasions where he used accepted and legitimate methods of
10historical research, exposition and interpretation, taking
11the three things together as a whole.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] It is a bit tortuous because really what you are saying is
13that the areas you have selected for criticism are not
14areas where you would praise Mr Irving?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, that is right, though I did not know that in advance.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Who told you which passages to go for, as it were?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Well, that is to say, as I explain here, I decided
18obviously to look at the question of Holocaust denial and
19whether it was legitimate to ----
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I see, topics as broad as that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] -- accuse Mr Irving of Holocaust denial. Then I decided
22to look at what he himself describes as the chain of
23documents which show that, in his view, Hitler was, as he
24says somewhere, the best friend the Jews ever had in the
25Third Reich. So we looked at as many of those as we
26could, all of the ones we could find, and in all of those
1we found the same thing, that is to say, where there were
2distortions, suppressions and manipulations. That is what
3I am saying there.
4 MR IRVING: We are going to come to the next paragraph, but in
5retrospect would you wish that you had phrased that final
6sentence less globally and less grandly, saying there were
7none, which implies that nowhere in my entire writings
8have I have used historical documents properly?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I did not find that in what I looked at.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Never once I did use a historical document correctly?
11Never once did I use material that had been before me? In
12all the records and books that you examined and we are
13going to see in a few pages time which books you did
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. By occasion, I mean of course the topics that we
16examined. No doubt, if you say that Hitler was born on
17such and such a date in such and such a year, that is a
19 Q. [Mr Irving] That is not what you are saying. I will repeat it again,
20"We have not suppressed any occasion on which Irving has
21used accepted and legitimate methods of historical
22research, exposition, interpretation. There were none."
23You are referring to my entire corpus of writing.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes, and I am following on the statements in the
25previous paragraphs and pages where I describe the methods
26used to draw up the report, and the word "occasion" there
1refers to the various topics that we looked at, which are
2outlined in the previous paragraphs.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] I would not want to rewrite your report. What you should
4therefore written surely was----
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sure you would.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] -- not "there were none" but "there were none in the few
7instances that we examined". Is that you are trying to
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not accept that there were few instances.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Three instances, Reichskristallnacht, Dresden and the
11Adjutants. Is that correct?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not correct at all, Mr Irving. We examined a
13great many other instances.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But then you continue in the next paragraph of course,
15then comes the purple prose as to what you alleged to have
16found swimming around in this cesspit of David Irving's
17writings. "I was not prepared", you write, "for the sheer
18depth of duplicity, his numerous mistakes, that is the
19bottom line but one, and the egregrious errors". On the
20contrary, "they were not accidental", you say, on the
21contrary, it is obvious that they were calculated and
22deliberate. Now, do you still stand by this assessment?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Most certainly, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] In all my writings? Or are you just referring to these
25few passages that you are being specific about?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am referring to the passages, the instances which we
2 Q. [Mr Irving] I think it would probably be helpful to his Lordship if
3you just listed on the fingers and thumbs of one or two
4hands which specific instances this sweeping and rather
5brutal judgment applies to?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are listed on the contents page of my report, my
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] These are the only instances you are referring to with the
10sweeping judgment, in other words you are not going to
11pass judgment on the rest of my writings?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I am satisfied, as I say in the report, that we
13examined a sufficient number of instances to assure
14ourselves that they were representative of your writings.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] All the rest. I am afraid I was not properly listening to
16your answer in response to his Lordship's question. Who
17picked these instances? Was it picked in committee with
18the Defendants? Did they say, why not go for
19Reichskristallnacht, pick on Dresden too, he is weak on
20that? Did you have a free hand?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I had a free hand and I picked them myself.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] No suggestions were made from the Defence upon instructing
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not to my recollection, no.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Happened to pick on Reichskristallnacht and happened to go
26to Dresden, although not very familiar with my work
2 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, in fairness to the witness, Mr Irving
3probably was not listening, often one does not listen very
4carefully when cross-examining, there was an earlier
5answer to the effect that what started the topics listed
6at paragraph 4 of the contents page on the second page was
7the very first item in that entry, "Irving's chain of
8documents" and thing leads to another, therefore.
9 MR IRVING: Well, the chain of documents, of course, refers
10specifically to Hitler's responsibility for the Final
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but it includes, for example, eight or nine
13examples, just as an example, Reichskristallnacht, which
14in itself is an enormous subject.
15 MR IRVING: It does not include Dresden and it does not
17 THE WITNESS: No. As I explained in the report, I thought that
18it was not really sufficient just to look at the chain of
19documents. The reason for that was that it might be
20arguable, as a number of your reviewers have indeed
21argued, that you were, as it were, unsound on that one
22issue, but sound on everything else. So I decided to look
23at Dresden because that is the book which established your
24reputation and has probably sold more than -- correct me
25if I am wrong -- any other of your books.
26 So that seemed to be one of your strongest
1books, if not your strongest book, so I decided to look at
2that as well. I did not want to confine myself, in other
3words, simply to the chain of documents relating to
4Hitler's responsibility or, you would argue,
5non-responsibility for the Final Solution.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Could it be that you set out with the belief that I had
7used these methods that you describe as sheer depth of
8duplicity and of distortion and the rest, and that you had
9preconceived that notion, then you picked on three or four
10roads by which to arrive at that particular Rome, so to
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, that is not the case at all; as I describe in the
13report, I had very little knowledge of your work and I was
14aware of your reputation as having been somebody who was
15in many cases, in many areas, a sound historian, and I was
16rather surprised at the results that I found. I described
17that all in my report and that was an honest description
18of my reaction.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you going to be prepared to eat your words if we take
20each one piece by piece and find out that you were
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let us see.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Then we shall come to that ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you this, Professor Evans? Did you
25consider Mr Irving the military historian, if you follow
26what I mean by that? It is not really your subject, as
1I understand your evidence this morning?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it seems to me that he is a military and political
4 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not doubt that, but I just wondered whether you have
5considered as a separate aspect of his historical writings
6his writings on military as opposed to political history?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, because they do not really relate to this case.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I thought that might be your answer, yes.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Obviously, though, it is enormously -- as you can see,
10this is a 740 page report.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] I am well aware of that.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It took an enormous amount of time and effort to do and
13there is simply a limited amount of time available.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. No, it is not a criticism at all.
15I just wanted for myself to know. Thank you.
16 MR IRVING: So if somebody had mentioned the name "David
17Irving", would you have said to yourself, "Oh, yes, that
18is the Holocaust historian"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You would have said, "That is the specialist in Third
21Reich personalities" or "The specialist in Naval war" or
22what? Would anything have occurred to you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, you have written on a variety of subjects, of
24course, but they have mostly been, with the exception,
25I think, of the book on Hungary in 1956, books about
26Germany and the Second World War and aspects of German
1politics, German personalities, biographies of leading
2German figures and aspects of the war.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] You say on page 20 -- my Lord, now at the top of page 20
4of his report -- "That is precisely why they are so
5shocking. Irving has relied in the past, and continues to
6rely in the present, on the fact that his readers and
7listeners, reviewers and interviewers lack", well,
8"expertise" you say there. You are saying that everyone
9who reads my books, effectively, are ignorant and so they
10cannot spot how duplicitous I am. Is that what you are
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me read the sentence: "Irving has relied in the past,
13and continues to rely in the present, on the fact that his
14readers and listeners, reviewers and interviewers lack
15either the time, or the expertise, to probe deeply enough
16into the sources he uses for his work to uncover the
17distortions, suppressions and manipulations to which he
18has subjected them".
19 Let me carry on just in the next sentence, if
20I may: "The late Martin Broszat and the American
21historian Charles W Sydnor, Jr., whose work is referred to
22below, are virtually the only previous historians to have
23gone some way down this road".
24 Q. [Mr Irving] I said in about six lines what you have said in 12, that
25roughly what I said was right, that they were so
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, that is not true at all. That is why I read the
2sentence out. I said "either the time or the expertise".
3 Q. [Mr Irving] To see through me, is that what ----
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] To uncover -- I do not want to read it all over again,
6 Q. [Mr Irving] This list of ignorant reviewers and listeners and readers
7of my books, does it include people Captain Stephen
8Roskill, the official Naval historian?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not describe him as ignorant, Mr Irving.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, you said they did not have the time or the
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I said they lacked either the time or the expertise. And
13anyone who has been involved in reviewing books knows
14that, particularly if you are reviewing for a daily or
15Sunday newspaper, you have a very tight deadline to meet
16and you do not have the time to go back to the archives
17and check everything out.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] You have reviewed books for the Jewish Chronicle, have you
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have reviewed books for the Sunday Telegraph, I have
21reviewed books ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Answer my question. You have reviewed books for the
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have indeed reviewed books for the Jewish Chronicle.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] So you are familiar with the fact that they do not have
26enough time, when you are reviewing books, this is where
1your expertise there comes from?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I said you do not have enough time to go back to the
3archives and the original sources to check the statements,
4and also, as I go on in the report to say, that, normally
5speaking, reviewers of academic, scholarly and non-fiction
6works generally, unless they have reasons to suppose
7otherwise, make the basic assumption that the author is
8honest and reporting honestly what he or she finds.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Knows what he is talking about. Well, that is the
10assumption that we are making in this court about you too,
11is it not, really, that you are not prejudiced or biased
12or that you have no private animosities towards anyone?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am glad you think so.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is an assumption we all make. But now can I come
15back to my question, which is that these ignorant
16reviewers and listeners, for whatever reason, do they
17include people like Captain Stephen Roskill, the official
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not describe them as "ignorant", Mr Irving. I say
20they lack either the time or the expertise -- one or the
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor AJP Taylor, would that include him?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was not a Professor, but, aside from that, I think he
24is one of the historians who ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Hugh Trevor Roper, would you include him in that
26kind of wayward, negligent category, a reviewer?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I go on to say, the ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] But we are going to go on to the next two names you have
3mention in a minute, but let us deal with ---
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have mentioned.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] --- this little catalogue of experts who have, apparently,
6totally negligently spoken and written highly of my works.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, let me go on to say that in dealing with the
8reviewers of your work, I try to make a distinction
9between journalists, on the one hand, who maybe accept it
10but clearly do not know an awful lot about the subject
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I mention some more names? And
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and historians with a general kind of expertise, but
14not specific knowledge of the sources ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Would Hans Monson have had ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and then historians with a specific expertise in the
17source materials on which you base your work ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Would Hans Monson ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and it is the last ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think, if I may say so, can I
21try to help you in this way so that we can move on? I am
22well aware that there have been quite a large number of
23distinguished academics who have paid tribute to your work
24as a military historian.
25 MR IRVING: Until comparatively recently, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, leave that on one side.
1 MR IRVING: Well, after the 1988 watershed.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does it really help to fire these names at
3Professor Evans? I do not think it does. It does not
5 MR IRVING: Do I not have a right to destroy his expert
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you do, but I would rather you did it by
8taking the particular criticisms that he makes of you and
9try to destroy them, rather than deal with it in a rather
11 MR IRVING: Well, can we move on to the two names you
12mentioned, Professor Broszat, we have mentioned him
13briefly. I am not going to go further into him. You
14mentioned a second name there, Charles Sydnor?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you referring to the review he wrote in a journal
17called, I think, European ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "Central European History".
19 Q. [Mr Irving] "Central European History".
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you compared that with the original article by Martin
22Broszat and have you seen that one is purely derivative
23from the other?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it is purely little derivative. I think
25Sydnor had his own -- well, let me say two things. First
26of all, I think it is true that Broszat provided, not only
1Sydnor but also Trevor-Roper with a number of the
2criticisms that they made of your work, but I do think
3Sydnor does go beyond that. He is a man who has a
4particular expertise on the SS and, indeed, he did have
5research assistants and research grants to write his
7 Q. [Mr Irving] To write his review?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Very nice.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He acknowledges that in his footnote.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] But it is very largely derivative from Professor Broszat
12in the way that I have suggested?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, come on. Let us move on to
14the criticisms that are made by Professor Evans against
15you, rather than discussing whether one other author's
16work is derivative from another.
17 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, two or three pages later we find
18Professor Evans saying, "Mr Irving gives no example of
19where writers copy what each other write", and that
20pre-empts that particular question, so I will not ask it.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
22 MR IRVING: Will you go now to the bottom of page 21?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, let me just make a point there, that I am not aware
24of anything you have written that says that Sydnor copied
25what he wrote from Broszat.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] I wrote a reader's letter to the magazine concerned which
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have read it.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Would you now go to the bottom of page ----
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you do not make that accusation there, to my
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, we are trying to move on.
7Do not put the brakes on.
8 MR IRVING: Page 21.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 21.
10 MR IRVING: My Lord, I find it very helpful when you do tell me
11to move on because I have no way of knowing whether I am
12barking up the wrong tree or not.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to give you the odd hint --
14I meant that in a sort of -- I mean that to be helpful.
15 MR IRVING: "The position can be summed up", you say, in these
16last two lines on page 21, "The position can broadly be
17summed up by saying that there is a general consensus that
18a decision was taken at the highest level". We are
19talking about the decision to kill Jews, right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes -- to kill all the Jews in Europe in a systematic way,
22 Q. [Mr Irving] "... that there is a general consensus that a decision was
23taken at the highest level some time between the beginning
24of 1941 and the spring of 1942". Are you a believer in
25the writing of history by general consensus then?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Ah, now, well, what I am saying is that I am trying to sum
1up the accepted state of historical knowledge, and ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Accepted state of historical knowledge?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, the general state of historical knowledge in
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I remind you of one or two other previous general
6consensus -- I believe it is fourth declension -- in
7history previously? There was at one time a general
8consensus that the world was flat, was there not, and
9there was also a general consensus that the sun moved
10around the earth. Was that another general consensus that
11was generally accepted?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I think scholarship has moved on a little since
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But is it not dangerous to write history or to do
15astronomy or anything else by general consensus, would you
16agree? There is a case for the outsider to come along and
17say, "I may be right, I may be wrong, but let us rethink
18this"? Do you agree?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, let me go on to say what I say in the next sentence
20which is: "The limits set by the available evidence do no
21allow of a date, say, in January 1993, or January 1943.
22The view that, for example, no decision was ever taken, or
23that the Nazis did not undertake the systematic
24extermination of the Jews at all, or that very few Jews
25were in fact killed, lies wholly outside the limits of
26what is reasonable for a professional historian to argue
1in the light of the available evidence." That is not to
2say that nobody should or people should not be allowed to
3challenge these things, but simply to say that this is
4what you face and, of course, it is based on an enormous
5amount of research by a very large number of people in the
6archives, in the original documents, and that you have to
7deal with all that research and all the documents which
8have been thrown up.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] So you say that people should not be necessarily
10prevented, they should be allowed to say these things
11without being harassed, arrested or imprisoned or stripped
12of their Professorship, but that these are generally not
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There are several questions there, I think.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us deal with just one.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] First of all, I believe in free speech, so you can say
17whatever you like so long as it does not offend the laws
18of the land. What one does, as a university Professor, is
19slightly more circumscribed, that is to say, I think, as
20an academic historian, you have the duty to confirm to
21academic standards in the evaluation of evidence and in
22the views that you put forward, leaving entirely aside
23whatever people who have been dismissed from their
24university posts might have done by way of running against
25the laws of the land in terms of racist statements or
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us just look at the first thing you say here: "The
2view that, for example, no decision was ever taken", and
3you consider this is one of the views that is totally
4beyond the limits. Are you not familiar with the fact
5that this is precisely the view espoused by Professor
6Martin Broszat in his famous 1977 paper? He said he came
7to agree with David Irving that probably there was no
8decision, and this is also the view taken by Raul Hilberg,
9is that not right?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you present to me the passages in their work where they
11say that, it is not quite my understanding of what they
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I believed that you were an expert and this is why
14you were being paid a very substantial sum by the Defence
15to stand in the position you are in now, that you knew
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, and I am already, leaving aside your cheap jibe about
18money which I treat with the contempt it deserves ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving] It was not cheap, from what I hear.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and I hope the court will as well ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is degenerating and please don't let us
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, was this not a justified question?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not really think that -- the problem
25I have with this is that Professor Evans has introduced a
26number of other authors in support of his criticisms. To
1that extent, I suppose it is legitimate for you to
2introduce, as it were, the other side of the coin. But
3I will say again, what is going to help me is to look at
4the individual criticisms and see whether Professor Evans
5is right when he says you have manipulated the data. I am
6not stopping you going through these earlier sections,
7but, without disrespect to Professor Evans, I can tell you
8I have not marked many of these early pages because they
9seem to me so broad and general that ----
10 MR IRVING: They are very broad and general but ----
11THE WITNESS: They are intended, my Lord, if it helps, just to
12set the background.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I realize that, but, in the end, it is
14the guts of it that we have to tackle.
15 MR IRVING: Yes, but if he is ----
16THE WITNESS: I mean, if it helps, Mr Irving, of course
17I accept that your work has had many very favourable
18reviews from many distinguished people.
19 MR IRVING: That is not what we are talking about. That is now
20beyond dispute. What we are saying here is that it is
21wrong for you to say in your report, in the opening,
22scene-setting passage, that the view that no decision was
23ever taken is beyond the pail and no reasonable person
24would now say this, when, in fact, I have mentioned to you
25two names of very famous, notable, academic historians,
26Monson (sic) and Hilberg, who have adopted precisely this
1view and have not been disproved.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that is my assessment of ----
3 Q. [Mr Irving] I mean Broszat and Hilberg, I am sorry.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is my assessment of the situation of research in this
6 Q. [Mr Irving] At the end ----
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you wish to produce documents which go against that,
8you are quite welcome to do so.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I did take it, Professor, that you had studied the
10documents in this case which include on several places in
11the expert reports the precise statements by Martin
12Broszat and Hilberg to this effect.
13 Would you go to the end of this particular
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do, Mr Irving, outline Broszat's ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving] --- On page 25?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- views on the decision-making process in my report, and
18I do note that because he thought of the decision-making
19process as coming from, as it were, the bottom up, that
20that inclined him to be sympathetic to your particular
21line on Hitler. So if that helps at all, I do not dispute
23 Q. [Mr Irving] At the end of the last line and a half on page 25, you
24say: "Irving has fallen so far short of the standards of
25scholarship customary among historians that he does not
26deserve to be called a historian at all". Is this still
1your view, having heard all the evidence over the last
2four or five weeks, that I show no scholarship ----
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it has been ----
4 Q. [Mr Irving] --- I do not deserve to be called an historian?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- reinforced by what I have read in the transcripts over
6the last weeks. I thought it would be helpful to the
7court to outline my conclusions in advance, as it were,
8instead of keeping the court guessing and waiting as it
9ploughed through my report. But, of course, it is
10somewhat kind of upside-down, if you see what I mean? I
11mean, this is, in a sense taking the conclusion in
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us go now to page 26 where you talk about my
14publishing career, you say most of my books about the Nazi
15leaders and Nazi Germany. Are you familiar with the book
16I wrote on the German atomic bomb project, which was the
17first book ever written on that subject and which was very
18highly praised by Nobel prize winner like Otto Haan, Verna
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not. I have not read that one.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] This book was not provided to you by the Defence
22instructing solicitors to form your judgment on?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me come back to the point, Mr Irving, that you have
24written about 30 books, some of which are more relevant to
25the issues which are at the centre of this case, and
26others and in the time available I am sure you would agree
1I could not possibly read through them all, even with a
2team with two research assistants working for me.
3Therefore, I selected the ones which I thought were most
4relevant to the issues which are at the centre of this
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But you have allowed yourself, notwithstanding that, some
7pretty sweeping judgments on my credentials, have you not?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On the basis of what I read which I think is a fair
10 Q. [Mr Irving] But at the end of that paragraph ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me remind you, this a 740-page report. There is an
12enormous amount of detail in it, and it simply was not
13possible to go any further in the time available.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But if you make seeping judgments about author's entire
15corpus as a historian over a 39-year writing career, and
16you say that he has not deserved the title of historian or
17he is not a scholarship and all the rest of it, one
18assumes that you are familiar with all his works,
19including these ones which have not been the least bit
20controversial and attracted the highest praise from people
21in positions to know?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I make it quite clear in the report that I am not
23familiar with all of your works, that I have done a
24selection for the reasons that I have said, but ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] You are familiar with my book on the Hungarian uprising?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. That seemed so far away from the issues at the centre
1of this case that it really was not one that I should have
3 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do pass comment on it on page 27?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, in this section, Mr Irving, I am simply trying to
5give a brief run down of what you have written. That is
6all I am trying to do.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] But in the process of running me down you might also have
8paid attention to the book I wrote on the German
9Intelligence Service, the Forschungsamt, and on the German
10Eastern Frontiers, the history of the German Eastern
11Frontiers, but they appear to have escaped your attention
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] For the reasons I have said, I did not have time to read
14all of your books. However, as I say in the report, I am
15quite satisfied on the basis of what I have read that
16reading more would only lead to the same kind of
17conclusions that I have drawn from what I have read.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] You comment on page 28 at the end of the first paragraph
19on my website?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that it contains materials by myself or by people
22who are congenial to me and views that are congenial to
23me. Is that a fair description?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where do I say this?
25 Q. [Mr Irving] At the end of the first paragraph on page 28: "This is
26constantly changing", you say, "but it includes lengthy
1documents and analyses produced or reproduced by Irving
2himself as well as by others whose views are congenial."
3In other words, what are you implying is I just have a
4gallery of claqueur?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, not at all, Mr Irving. This is a section in which
6I am trying to outline the availability of documentation
7on which it is possible to base an assessment of your
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you not familiar with ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am saying that simply because, therefore, it is possible
11to take this into account. That is all I am saying there.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you not familiar with the fact that if you go to my
13website you will find not only documents to support my
14cases, such as they are, but also opposing documents
15fairly and prominently displayed, and that I have included
16links to all the hostile websites in the manner which is
17now part of the courtesy and etiquette of the internet?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, and you include daily transcripts of this entire
19proceedings and indeed a copy of my own report.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] I have made it available.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But that is not the point I am trying to make here. I am
22simply trying to outline the fact that there is an
23enormous amount of material which was available to me in
24writing this report.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] But you are not trying to make the point ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not intended as criticism. I am not night trying to
1make the point that you do not produce any others. That
2is not what I am arguing about.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] But the way you have written it implies that I only print
4or reproduce or publish materials that are congenial to
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it does not. I am sorry. Let me read the sentence:
7"The is", it is the website I am referring to, "This is
8constantly changing, but it includes lengthy documents and
9analyses produced or reproduced by Irving himself, as well
10as by others whose views are congenial to him." That
11follows a sentence saying he has also made his views in a
12variety of, and so on, a frequent writer of letters to
13newspapers, all these books, that is all I am trying to
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Where do you say in that paragraph that I also include the
16views of those which are diametrically opposed to me?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not relevant to what I am saying there. What I am
18saying there is that there is a lot of material on which
19to base an assessment of your work. All I am saying there
20is that your website is part of the basis on which it is
21possible to assess your work.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You appreciate that running a website costs a lot of
23money. Is there any reason why I should put material
24which is opposed to my viewpoint unless I was scrupulously
25fair in everything I do in public life? In other words,
26the exact opposite of what you described earlier in your
1report as being unscrupulous and manipulative and
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I put it this way, so we can perhaps move
4on. Would you agree that it is credible that Mr Irving
5puts on his Internet website material which is opposed to
6him, such as your report?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, of course. Obviously it is in the interests of
8getting more users for the website to give to do that kind
9of thing. I do not dispute that at all. I am not
10criticising you at all.
11 MR IRVING: Moving on now to qualifications which is 2.2.1.
12You quite rightly say that in all the examinations I took
13at school history was the only subject I flunked?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do say that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that one of your lighter remarks rather in the vein of
16the thing in the pornographic section?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I just thought it was a nice quote.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact you have four 'A' levels and I have nine. So how
19does this shape itself?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not know how many years. Did you do them all at
22 Q. [Mr Irving] I kept on plugging away. If we now continue to where,
23looking at whether you have to be an historian to be an
24historian, so to speak?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] In your view, do you have to be an academic historian? Do
1you have to have degrees to be able to write history?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I say so here that this is not, I think, a
3particularly strong powerful criticism. The work has to
4be assessed on its merits. There are, as I say, any
5number of ----
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Very reputable historians?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] -- Reputable historians who do not have formal academic
9 Q. [Mr Irving] People like Walter Laqueur?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Or Tony Fraser, many people. We are all agreed on that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are all agreed about this, so we can pass
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, the point I am making is that paragraph
142.2.2 in the second line, having made that point and very
15generously saying there is a good deal to say for this
16argument, he then goes on to say: "As he suggests in the
17above passage, he has no academic as an historian".
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Then I go on to say in the next sentence: "Although these
19are serious initial disadvantages for becoming a
20professional historian, there are plenty of examples of
21reputable and successful historians whose lack of formal
22academic qualifications is as striking as Irving's." So I
23am agreeing with you.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Sometimes your bias does come through, does it not? If
25you go to the first line of the next paragraph, 2.3.2:
26"Irving tells anyone willing to listen that he is an
1expert historian". That is a bit of a sneer there, is it
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would be happy to withdraw that if you think it is a
4sneer. It is nothing to do with your academic
6 Q. [Mr Irving] When we are talking of withdrawing things, later on, on
7line 4 of that paragraph, you have withdrawn quite a lot,
8have not, where you put the three dots?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me have a look.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you have a look, please, at the 1977 edition of my
11book Hitler's War? Do you have it, my Lord?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it.
13 MR IRVING: Line 4. We will see exactly what you have left
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think I have it here.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It can be provided. It is the introduction.
17 MR IRVING: Page xii.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not have xii here.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a bundle which does not have the
20introduction. Can you find one which does.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It has the introduction.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is where it is, xii.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. There are different editions of this book, my Lord.
24I think that is the problem.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but you have the 1977 edition?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have it.
1 MR IRVING: I am terribly sorry, we are looking at the wrong
2thing. It is footnote five we should be looking at and it
3is the speech in Victoria.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I am terribly sorry.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Start again.
7 MR IRVING: I have written in the margin "Pure Gold" so I think
8it is going to be worth looking at. I have said: "What
9is omitted? Pure gold, read it out". This is a speech,
10is it not, that I made in Victoria on October 28th 1992 on
11the subject of freedom of speech, having been just awarded
12the George Orwell Freedom of Speech prize and shortly
13before I was taken off by eight Mounted Policemen in
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can the Defendants side produce a reference
17 MR RAMPTON: I am just trying.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very kind.
19 MR RAMPTON: H1 (i), tab blank, page 29.
20 MR IRVING: You have made two omissions, have you not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you point me to the page?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 29, yellow tab.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Which is the page on which this statement occurs? .
24 MR IRVING: I am sorry, my Lord. I should have come better
25prepared with the actual missing passages available.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is unusual that you are not.
1 MR IRVING: Would it be helpful if I passed on to the next
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to suggest that. They have found
5 MR RAMPTON: Page 31, my Lord, third paragraph at the bottom of
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Page 31 in the stamp at
8the bottom of the page.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10 MR IRVING: It begins, does it not, "I have spent 30 years now
11working in the archives in London, in Washington and
12Moscow, in short around the world. If I express an
13opinion, it is properly a reasonably accurate opinion
14which I have arrived at over a period of years", and then
15you have left something out. Can you tell us what has
16been left out?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. Without fear or favour to either side and certainly
18not as a result of being bribed or corrupted or
20 Q. [Mr Irving] "In researching Hitler" does it then continue?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
23 MR RAMPTON: That is a confusion. The "researching Hitler" bit
24is a different footnote. It is footnote 6.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I realise that, because it comes after the
26little (v). That is obviously right, Mr Irving.
1 MR IRVING: Now we are back to Hitler's War again.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I omitted that because I do not think you have been bribed
3or corrupted or intimidated.
4 MR RAMPTON: I am waiting for my bag of pure gold. I do not
6 MR IRVING: Gold with a capital G I think is going to come now
7beyond (ii) of the 1977 Hitler's war. In fact, you are
8going to dislike me over this because, although the
9footnote says it is the 1977 edition, my Lord ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It might be 1991.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] It is the 1991 edition and it is pages 6 to 7.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is in fact I think 7 to 8, not 6 to 7, so you are wrong
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Come on.
15 MR IRVING: Can we begin with the middle? "For the few
16autobiographical works I have used, I prefer to rely on
17the original manuscripts rather than the printed texts as
18in the early postwar years apprehensive publishers,
19especially the licensed ones in Germany, made drastic
20changes in them", and then you have left out a bit?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. For example, there is a lot of detail there which is
22not really of any concern to me.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Then you continue "But historians".
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] What you are saying is that everything you left out is a
26lot of detail which is not of concern to you?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, to borrow your own phrase, I did not want to
2fill my report with acres of sludge.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Although it provides verisimilitude to the allegation?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not disputing it here. I am trying to present your
5own point of view here as succinctly as I can.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Did your Lordship identify the passage left out?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes I did. It is the sort of point you need
8not labour. I understand what the point is.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If it helps, I quite accept that you have identified the
10forgeries and falsifications. I am not disputing that at
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not so that on these two pages, pages 30 to 31 of
13your expert report, you rather pour cold water, cold
14douche, on the idea that I have succeeded in spotting
15source document after source document, particularly in the
16form of diaries or alleged diaries which turn out to have
17been phoney or prettified up?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where do I do that?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] In paragraph 233, and I will read it out while you are
20going back to it. "(Irving) listed a whole variety of
21diaries and other sources on which he claimed -- without
22any references to back his assertion up, however --
23previous historians had relied ...." Now of course you
24see the point why I am irritated that you left out the
25detail I had put in which you chopped out, because you
26said it did not concern you.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not disputing this at all. What I am really writing
2about here is your claim that other historians, reading on
3in the paragraph, your "idle predecessors" had failed to
4detect them each successive biographer has repeated or
5engrossed the legends, historians have never troubled to
6consult basic documentation, and so on. That is what the
7issue is here. I am not disputing at all that you have
9 Q. [Mr Irving] There are numbers of diaries floating around which are
10still broadly quoted by the great historians, even
11somebody as reputable as Andreas Hilgruber has relied on
12the Engel diary for example?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I thought you did not read the work of other historians,
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I am very familiar with what Andreas Hilgruber has written
16in the criticisms of his work in this respect.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] So you do read other historians.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, may I make a suggestion
19because we are going to be here a very, very long time.
20It is really is best not to argue, as it were. It is
21tempting, I know.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, the point I am trying to make in this passage is
23not that Mr Irving has not discovered falsifications and
24forgeries. I accept that absolutely. The point I am
25trying to make here is that, without any references or
26support, in any references to documents or other
1historians' work, he is levelling unjust accusations at
2other historians. That is the nub of this paragraph.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] You go on to then criticise him for not bothering to visit
4so and so.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, my Lord, no, I do not. I am saying that he
6has accused other historians of not bothering to visit.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right to correct me.
8 MR IRVING: Was that criticism by me justified that other
9historians failed to visit these people?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have not provided any documentation of this
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, do I not in the introduction to my book Hitler's War
13draw specific reference to the widow of Walter Havel, the
14widow of Anst von Bisecker, who was the mother of the
15later president of Germany, who all provided their private
16papers and diaries to me of their late husbands?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not dispute that they have provided you with
18material, Mr Irving. I am not disputing that at all.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] These are specific examples of widows who had not been
20visited by these lazy German historians. I am not
21inventing this, am I?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you have not provided any support of the accusation
23that later historians have repeated or engrossed the
24legends created by their predecessors and so on and so
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me put it in question form. If German historians have
1existed from 1945 to approximately 1970, 25 years without
2visiting the widows of these well-known Germans, who might
3very well have the private diaries of their late departed
4husbands, is this not laziness on the part of the entire
5body of German historians, academics or otherwise, not to
6have made such visits to these people?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not accept that. Historians are constantly
8discovering new sources. There are many historians who
9have discovered sources that you have not discovered, but
10I would never accuse you of being lazy.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not remarkable that not one single German historian
12had visited the widow of Ribbentrop's state secretary to
13ask, do you have your husband's diaries in 25 years?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The normal procedure with papers and files is that
15archivists approach people whom they think might have them
16and that is what is normally done. That has of course
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In this case clearly they had not. The Institut fur
19Zeitgeschichte had not bothered to visit them. The
20Bundesarchives had not bothered to visit them?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] However the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte had a great number
22of former leading Nazis in to give interviews, collected a
23great deal of material, so it is very difficult to
24criticise them, particularly since you have described them
25in your own work as being an admirable institution.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Commendable, yes. Would you go to the next paragraph,
1please, which is paragraph 2.3.4? I am trying to make
2forward progress. On line 3 you criticise the fact that
3I constantly say the German historians have just quoted
4each other and it is the biggest active incest since 1945,
5I have occasionally said, they just run around quoting
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Each one assuming that the other one had the source.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] You have said, give me one example or justify this have
11you not, in that paragraph?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] You were not here two or three days ago when we read one
14page from the history published by Michael Berenbaum. Do
15you know who Michael Berenbaum is?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] The ex director of the US Holocaust memorial museum. Do
18you know who Professor Aberhard Jackeln is?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, indeed I do.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that Aberhard Jackeln wrote a paper in a
21book recently published by Berenbaum in which he looks at
22the historiography of the Holocaust?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not familiar with that one, no.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] If I tell you that that paper contains -- I know what
25your answer is going to be -- a statement by Aberhard
26Jackeln that, until my book Hitler's War was published,
1historians had just quoted each other, or they had not
2bothered to do the research, they had only started
3researching once my book was published with my outrageous
4opinions, as he calls them, does that not justify my
5statement that until that time, 1977, there had been no
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, first of all, I would have to see that statement by
8Jackeln to make sure that it says what you say it says
9and, secondly, then I would have to check it to see if he
10justifies it by reference to the work of other historians.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] If, since 1955, approximately, the American National
12Archives in Washington had on microfilm available freely
13in the public domain microfilm copies of all Heinrich
14Himmler's papers, and all his handwritten telephone notes
15and all his handwritten diaries so far as they were in
16United States hands, is it not to be criticised that not
17one single German historian or scholar or any other
18historian or scholar had made any use of them until I came
19along and used them?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There are two points there. First of all, it depends on
21what historians actually are researching as to what
22sources they consult. Secondly, of course, it depends on
23the use they make of them. Trying to cut this discussion
24short, I do not dispute that you have been the first
25person to read and discover many documents. I am not
26disputing that at all. What I am disputing is the fact
1that you criticise other historians for relying on weak
2and unprofessional evidence, and quoting each other for
3the last 45 years, without providing any substantiation of
4those statements whatsoever.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor, I agree with you, but is it not true that at
6the time I wrote Hitler's War in 1977, this was a
7perfectly justified criticism to make, and that nobody had
8done the research until I came along?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Research on what, Mr Irving?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Heinrich Himmler's handwritten telephone notes, for
11example. We have 300 pages of Heinrich Himmler's
12handwritten telephone notes; you would imagine that one
13historian would have bothered to transcribe them.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, but you state in 1991 that conventional historians of
15the Jewish Holocaust have not consulted the Himmler
16telephone notes and pocket diaries, and historians have
17certainly used them between 1977 and 1991.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] By that time they had come along and started using them,
19that is correct, but I published the original introduction
20with an addendum. But, in the light of what we have been
21saying in the last 20 minutes, is not your judgment that
22I do not deserve the title of historian and do not deserve
23the title of scholar rather harsh and unjustified? Would
24you be prepared to reconsider that opinion now?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think it is harsh, but I do not think it is
26unjustified. It is not a question of what you discover or
1what you bring to light, it is a question of what you do
2with the material that you have got.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] If what I did with it was make available my transcripts of
4the Himmler telephone notes immediately to all other
5historians by placing them in the archives in Munich, is
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is thoroughly commendable but that is not what I
8mean. What I mean is what you do with it in the way that
9you interpret it, which we still have not got on to.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] But, if I deliberately and duplicitously misinterpret or
11distort a document and simultaneously place the document
12in the public domain in easily legible form, it is rather
13self-defeating because then all the good historians and
14all the scholars, as they call themselves, will come along
15and point out the fact that I have been duplicitous. Is
16that not so?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Ultimately yes, but, as I have said, it does require a
18considerable research effort to do this.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] That presupposes that I have done it deliberately, that
20duplicity is deliberate, does it not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes indeed.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] If the duplicity is there but has been inadvertent, then
23that is precisely what an inadvertent duplicitous deceiver
24would do. He would put stuff in the public domain without
25realising that he had inadvertently mistranslated
26something or distorted something. That would be the
1innocent interpretation to be placed on that kind of
2activity, would it not?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is so convoluted that I find it very difficult to
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is really quite straightforward.
6 MR IRVING: The genuine deceiver would not simultaneously place
7the clue to his deceit in the public domain, would he?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Ah well, let me make two points there. One is that in the
9end you are not going to be able to keep them out of the
10public domain. That is going to be very difficult and, of
11course, a number of the documents which you misinterpret
12and manipulate are in the public domain anyway.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you say that I misinterpreted and distorted them
14deliberately? Is this your contention?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that my contention. You know there is a difference
16between, as it were, negligence, which is random in its
17effect, i.e. if you are simply a sloppy or bad historian,
18the mistakes you make will be all over the place. They
19will not actually support any particular point of view.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Like the example I gave of the waiter who always gives
21wrong change but only in his favour. That is not random?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. The waiter sometimes gives too much change. That is
24 Q. [Mr Irving] I have never yet met a waiter who has given me too much
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On the other hand, if all the mistakes are in the same
1direction in the support of a particular thesis, then I do
2not think that is mere negligence. I think that is a
3deliberate manipulation and deception. Let me give a
5 Q. [Mr Irving] A short parallel, please.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All right, a short parallel.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, as long as you like. We are now on
8something which is central and important.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Thank you. I refer to this in my report. There was a
10very bitter controversy nearly 20 years ago now over a
11young Marxist historian in America called David Abraham,
12who wrote a book about the support of industrialists and
13agricultural pressure groups for the Nazis in the late
14Weimar Republic and he was accused of massive
15falsification and manipulation of the source material.
16And in his reply he admitted that his German had been bad,
17he had researched very quickly and he had made a lot of
18mistakes but he claimed that it had been simple
19incompetence and mere negligence and that his mistakes
20counted in many cases against him. Then indeed he was
21able to show one or two instances of this, but his critics
22I think succeeded in showing that the general tendency of
23his mistakes was to exaggerate the support that
24industrialists gave to the coming of a Nazi government.
25Therefore, I think quite rightly, they were able to, as it
26were, convict him of manipulating the evidence. So I
1think there is a distinction to be made there that is
2really quite a clear one.
3 MR IRVING: That is a fair example to give and I am sure his
4Lordship was quite right to allow you to develop it at
5length. Did this Abraham simultaneously donate his entire
6research materials to a public domain archive where all
7his critics could immediately catch him out?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They were already in archives, most of which had wide
10 Q. [Mr Irving] That is how he was caught out?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it make sense for somebody who had limited and
13privileged access to papers by virtue of having read
14Heinrich Himmler's very difficult handwriting, for
15example, simultaneously to make records available to his
16potential critics if he was going to act in a deliberately
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me say there is a number of instances where I think
19that you have made it very difficult, deliberately
20difficult, for other researchers to track down the sources
21of what you say.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] I would like one example, please?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] One example is the testimony of Police Officer Hoffmann in
24the 1924 Hitler trial, where you simply refer to microfilm
25transcripts. Another one would be in your references to
26Ingrid Wecker to source some of your views on the
1Reichskristallnacht. There are others which I detail in
2the report which do make it very time consuming and very
3difficult to track down.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Obviously I cannot answer your points here because
5I cannot lead evidence, but will you take it, Professor,
6that we have dealt with, not the Wecker matter, but we
7have dealt with the microfilm matter quite extensively
8under cross-examination. I am sure his Lordship will look
9that up in due course. On the microfilm of the Hitler
10treason trial in 1924, my Lord, we dealt with that. I can
11remind your Lordship that Professor Evans was using the
12printed edition of the trial and I was using the original
13three microfilms of the 8,000 pages or so of the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I do not have that, to be honest,
16in my mind at the moment.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The printed edition is a complete edition of the
19 MR IRVING: The printed edition appeared, did it not, several
20years after the microfilms did?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Relatively recently.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You could have been more precise in your references.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I not right in saying the printed edition appeared
25several years after my Hermann Goring biography was
26published and so I could not possibly have referenced it
1from the printed edition?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not saying you should have referenced the printed
3edition. I am simply saying first of all the printed
4edition is the same as the microfilm edition because you
5disputed that in cross-examination, and secondly I am
6saying that you made it difficult to consult your source,
7which is the microfilm edition, because you did not give
8any precise reference.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you looked at the microfilms of that treason trial?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No I have not. I have seen the printed edition.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with whether they have frame numbers or
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You do not give the frame numbers.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] No, but would you accept that, if they do not have frame
15numbers then you cannot give frame number references?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If that is the case, yes, but you can of course be helpful
17to the reader by pointing to roughly where it comes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you putting, Mr Irving, that these
19microfiche did not have frame reference numbers?
20 MR IRVING: I had to leave it exactly the way I said it my
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the answer to my question?
23 MR IRVING: I put to the witness the possibility that it had no
24frame numbers in which case I would not have been able to
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am asking you a question though and I think
1I am entitled to because I want to know how you are
2putting your case. Are you making it an allegation which
3is part of your case that these particular microfiche did
4not have frame numbers, so that that was the reason why
5you could not accurately refer?
6 MR IRVING: To be perfectly frank, my Lord, it is 12 years
7since I wrote the book and I cannot remember. But that
8would be one logical reason why I did not give frame
9numbers where normally I do give frame numbers, as your
10Lordship is aware.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you did not provide the dates, did you, for when the
12testimony was given, for example, which would be helpful
13to the reader?
14 MR IRVING: That again I cannot tell you without looking at the
15book. Would you go to page 32, please, paragraph 2.3.6?
16You have been very harsh about just about every other
17Hitler historian have you not? Every Hitler biography,
18you do not find words of praise for any of them?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not a lot, no.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Joachim Fest is overblown and over-praised?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is not "every other" of course. There have been
22scores, hundreds, of Hitler biographies.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] These are the major ones.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] These are the leading ones, that is right, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] These are the main ones. You describe Joachim Fest, his
26book as being overblown and overpraised?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] You describe John Toland's work as hopelessly inaccurate.
3You are relatively kind about Alan Bullock, which is,
4I suppose, you call his book "for the time very credible"
5which is a kind of back handed complement, is it not?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It was written about five years after the war, I think,
7immediately after the war.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not have nice words to say about anybody really,
9apart from Ian Kershaw on the next page.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is true.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Now that you know that he wrote to us, apologising that
12his knowledge of German was very limited ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not know that, Mr Irving, because I have not seen the
14document that you are referring to.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] If I tell you that he wrote us a letter apologising that
16he could not give evidence for this case because his
17knowledge of German was too limited, would you accept ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I will not. I will have to see the letter before
19I accept it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] If anybody wrote a letter saying that his knowledge of
21German was very limited, would you say that he could not
22have a thorough knowledge of the archival material which
23is what you say in lines 2 and 3?
24 MR RAMPTON: I do think in this particular instance, most of
25time I have not intervened because I know that Mr Irving
26is not a professional advocate and he gives evidence all
1the time while he is cross-examining, which I would never
2be allowed to do, without producing material. In this
3case I would like to see the letter if it is to be relied
5 MR IRVING: We will produce the letter. There is no problem
6about that, my Lord.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a fair request so perhaps
8tomorrow morning you can do that.
9 MR IRVING: Certainly. If Mr Rampton has any criticisms to
10make of the way that I am cross-examining, I am sure that
11your Lordship would not object to him raising his
12objections at the time.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If and when he does, then I will deal with it
14and in the meantime I am trying, as I have said many
15times, to make allowance for the fact that you are not as
16familiar as some of us are with the rules.
17 MR IRVING: I am also trying not to lead evidence. I have
18tried to restrict it to asking questions in difficult
20 When you say in the fifth line of that page 33
21that there are hundreds of historians, so that you rather
22imply that my criticism is a bit overreaching, that
23I imply that I am the only one with a thorough knowledge,
24and of course there are hundreds of historians, would you
25accept that that applies to the situation now at the end
26of the 20th century, the beginning of the 21st century,
1rather than back in the 1970s when there were relatively
2few who had this knowledge of the archives. Is that
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, the point I am making there is that, to quote the
5previous sentence, that simply to concentrate on
6biographies of Hitler is to deliver a completely
7misleading account of the state of research in the field
8in which you work. As I say, somewhere in the report,
9I think research in the archival material really began in
10a serious way in the 1960s and the 1970s, but of course we
11are concerned here not just with the 1977 edition of your
12book but also with the 1991 edition of your book, in which
13you make the same sweeping condemnations of professional
14historians as you did in 1977. If you think that the
15situation has change in the intervening period, then
16I think you should have said so.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I draw attention, witness, purely to the fact that you are
18talking about there are hundreds, and that this report is
19written now of course and not in the 1970s, and would you
20in the 1970s or 1960s have said there are hundreds of
21historians who were equally capable? Would you have
22written that sentence back at the time that I wrote these
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] In the 60s I would probably have said scores, by the 70s
25probably hundreds. If you take the Institut fur
26Zeitgeschichte in Munich alone, they have a very
1substantial staff, and there are many other institutes,
2the Institute of Contemporary History in London, Yad
3Vashim and many other institutes which were around in the
41970s which did employ professional historians who did
5archival work on Germany in the second world war.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Witness, what is your opinion of the Nuremberg records,
7the printed Nuremberg volumes, the blue series and the
8American dream series, the Nazi conspiracy and aggression,
9would you consider them to be a source that you would
10recommend to students to use as source books?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. You use them yourself.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In what respect do you suggest that I use them myself? Do
13I use them as a reference to go to, to check up on
14something, or do I use them as the basic quarry in which
15I mine for the original sources on which to write books?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You use them in your work. You use them in this
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you not familiar with these strictures that I place on
19the use of the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials? Are
20you not familiar with the fact that I allege that there
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Would you give me an example?
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I can only ask you questions.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Do not feel inhibited to that sort of
26 MR IRVING: I will give an example in this direction, but first
1of all I will ask a question, if I may. Witness, have you
2ever listened to the wire or tape recordings of the
3proceedings at Nuremberg and compared them with the blue
4volumes, the printed text?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I have not.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Now I will answer your question. I have done precisely
7that for one entire day and compared the blue volumes with
8the testimony given by a man whose biography I wrote,
9Field Marshal Milsch, and that was sufficient to put me
10off those transcripts for life.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, first of all, I think I would like to see an
12accurate transcript and the inaccurate transcript, and
13secondly, Mr Irving, you have just criticised me for
14making sweeping statements about your work on the basis of
15reading a selection of it, and here you are, having read
16one day's transcript of the Nuremberg trials, and
17condemning the lot.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, if you find one source is polluted, would you not
19tend to go to a different well spring and drink from
20somewhere else, put it like that? You would not just say,
21well, just this one cupful of water had the strichnine in
22it but the rest is probably OK? Would you put it like
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think that is a very happy comparison.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the bound volumes, the American
26printed volumes, of the documents that were used at
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you noticed one distinguishing feature about the
4selection of documents that is made? Would I be right in
5saying that the documents that are printed are purely the
6documents used for the prosecution and that not one single
7Defence document has been printed in those 46 volumes?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is right, yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] You think that is right?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this suggest to you that this might possibly lead to
12a skewed or distorted version of history if one was to
13write history relying extensively or partly or to any
14significant extent on a corpus of evidence where only the
15prosecution case was in print and the Defence case was not
16represented at all?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] As far as exhibits are concerned?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you are quite right in saying, if you relied on
20the Nuremberg documents exclusively, and you did read
21anything else, then of course that would be very
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I refer you back to your paragraph 2.3.7 where you refer
24admonishingly (if the word exists) to the major
25documentary collections that have been generally available
26to historians for decades, tons of captured German
1documents to prepare their indictments in the Nuremberg
2trials and many of these were printed in the published
3record of the trials. You do not mention the fact that
4the only ones printed are the prosecution documents, do
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The point I am trying to make, Mr Irving, in this
7paragraph, is simply that there was an enormous amount of
8material available for studying the Third Reich and its
9policies in the Second World War. That is all I am trying
10to make. I am not making any statements about how
11reliable any of these documentary recollections might be.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but just on the basis of the last two or three
13minutes of cross-examination, it does appear that I have
14applied a more critical mind to these document collections
15than you have, and you are the scholar and I am the
16amateur. You are the gentleman and I am the player.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That may appear to you. It certainly does not appear to
18me. It is very, very general. It is a very general
19paragraph, vast new masses of documents, both official and
20private in provenance have become available, widely
21available to scholars. This is not an area of history
22like the 5th century when historians had to make do with
23sparse and obscure source material. I am simply trying to
24make the point to help the court reach an assessment of
25this case, that this is an area where there is an enormous
26mass of material available. That is all I am trying to
1say. You know, I am trying to say it as briefly as I can,
2to keep the report short. I do not then want to go into a
3great long disposition about how much is reliable and how
4much is not.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] You are saying that this paragraph is waffle, really, is
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have spent enough time on this
8paragraph, Mr Irving, I am going to say just this as
9well. I have some sympathy with you because, after all,
10these first 70 to 100 pages are there, and they contain
11material which I fully understand you regard as
12offensive. I am not saying you are right to regard them
13as being offensive, and that is why you are going through
14them, but in the end the bit that matters starts about
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The detailed criticisms?
17 MR IRVING: You are absolutely right, my Lord, but I would
18regard this part of the cross-examination as going to the
19credibility of the witness.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Well, in parts I think it has, and
21again I cannot absolutely stop you.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, you can stop me at any time.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can. What I mean is that I am not going to
24stop you because I think some at any rate of these
25questions based on these passages are probably
26legitimate. If I give you another hint, and it is only a
1hint at this stage, that I am not really finding this of
2any particular value to the task I have to perform, then
3perhaps you would pass on through it a bit more rapidly.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Perhaps I can help too?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ----
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] At least one of the questions which Mr Irving has asked is
7already dealt with in my responses to his written
8questions, so we are going ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not had a chance to look at those.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I know. I think that is the problem.
11 MR IRVING: At the risk of testing your Lordship's patience,
12still on page 33, three lines from the bottom: "This is
13not an area of history like the 5th Century when
14historians have to make do with sparse and obscure
15resource material to reconstruct what happened."
16 Is this not precisely what we have been
17struggling to do for the last five weeks in this
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not think so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] We have been struggling to reconstruct what happened not
21on the Eastern Front where we agree the documentation is
22there, but what happened, for example, to the Jews from
24 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I must intervene again. I think
25Mr Irving really has a misconception about what this case
26is about. We have not been struggling to reconstruct that
1at all. What we have been struggling to reconstruct is
2Mr Irving's state of mind.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That true is, but is he not entitled to make
4the point to Professor Evans that one of the problems all
5historians have dealing, for example, with the issue of
6Hitler's knowledge of a genocidal gas extermination
7programme, that actually the documentary, leave aside the
8other material, is very sparse?
9 MR RAMPTON: That is a perfectly fair point, but I do believe
10Mr Irving is -- that is a completely fair point and that
11is what the question I think started out as being ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it did, yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: But it turned into what I have repeatedly
14perceived to be a misconception of what this case is
15about. This is not some historical tribunal of enquiry.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think that does need to be said quite
17often, I agree.
18 MR RAMPTON: It does.
19 MR IRVING: It should not be a tribunal of historical enquiry,
20my Lord. On November 4th I did plead with your Lordship
21not to allow it to become an enquiry into what happened,
22because my submission was that this was not what that case
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think everybody is agreed about that.
25 MR IRVING: I think that now Mr Rampton realizes that
26particular bear skin has floated away down the river, he
1is now trying to get back on to the other track again.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure I follow what is meant by that.
3 MR IRVING: I translated the German.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, bear skins in German?
5 MR IRVING: Yes.
6 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but I still do not understand it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will not struggle to. We will get on.
9 MR IRVING: I only have two more points to make, my Lord, in
10that case. This is at the foot of page 35, near the foot
11of it, paragraph 2.4.1. You are talking about evidence
12given after the event in the form of testimony in a public
13trial is relatively sound. Unless Mr Rampton has an
14objection, this is again quite a key issue.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a perfectly fair point.
16 MR IRVING: Do you maintain, therefore, that what is stated in
17any tribunal, regardless of how long after the war, is
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I have put the word "relatively" in there, and then
20of course I add, well, two sentences either side of that.
21The first is, the greater in distance the time of events
22to which they relate the more critically they must be
23examined, I think that is true.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a secondary source, is it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I mean sources after the event, sources which are produced
26afterwards and rely on memory or the work of other
1historians, and secondly that this court testimony must of
2course be assessed by an historian as to the purpose or
3purposes with which it was given. I am saying you have to
4regard it with caution.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As you do all material. It is, of course, the greater in
7distance in time the events the more critically one has to
9 Q. [Mr Irving] I am only going to deal with this very briefly, my Lord,
10and this is the question: Do you ever apply your mind,
11witness, to the question of what pressures of a
12psychological nature or other nature may have been applied
13to a witness to make statements on which you have relied?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you try to put your mind inside the mind of the
15person giving the evidence, and you ask yourself what
16interest they would have in saying one thing or another.
17So, prima facie, it would seem obvious that a former Nazi
18who was deeply implicated in the crimes of Nazism would
19have an interest in trying to exculpate himself in giving
20evidence. In terms of what pressures were put on
21somebody, then I think you have to look for evidence of
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I stop you there. You say a former Nazi might try to
24exculpate himself. Would there be a temptation in a
25Fuhrer state to exculpate himself by saying that he was
26acting on higher orders, regardless of whether or not it
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We are talking about a different period now. We are
3talking about during the Third Reich?
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, that is what we are interested in here.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think trials after the war of Nazi
7 MR IRVING: Trials after the war, but suppose a General or an
8SS Obergruppenfuhrer like Karl Wolf or someone like that
9put on trial, would there be a temptation, hypothetically,
10for him to say: "Well, I did not do this on my own
11initiative. I was told it was the Fuhrer's orders", just
12for an example? Would there be a temptation do you think?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I think that would be difficult, because the classic
14defence "I was only obeying orders" has not been one that
15has been widely accepted by courts.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] But it was specifically excluded at Nuremberg, was it
17not? It was in the permitted at Nuremberg, the high
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] What about in the German courts, was it permitted?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let us take the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials of 1963 to 4,
22and there was a very extensive affidavit there by
23historians which tried to sketch out the possibilities
24there were for evading orders, and indeed historians and
25law courts have always been exercised by the problems
26posed by that particular defence. On the whole I do not
1think it is one that would recommend itself to people. It
2is far better to say that you did not know about it than
3simply, yes, you did know but you were only obeying
5 Q. [Mr Irving] How reliable would human memory be after 20 years, do you
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not a psychologist. I think that one has to be one
8has to be sceptical and critical about what people say,
9but you cannot dismiss it out of hand. Many of the
10interviews which you conducted 20 or 30 years after the
11events involved, I think that one has to be very critical
12and very sceptical about what these people are saying and
13ask why they were saying it and what interest they had in
14taking the line they were taking. But that does not mean
15one dismisses it out of hand. You go through the normal
16historical procedures of comparing what they say with the
17documentation that is available, preferable contemporary
19 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I have now reached the end of my prepared
20questions. I had prepared to ask further questions today
21but that was on the area you were not going to allow.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that was on bundle E?
23 MR IRVING: On bundle E, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25 MR IRVING: You have promised me additional time for dealing
26with Professor Evans.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not going to compel you to carry
2on if you have run out of questions.
3 MR IRVING: I have questions prepared here but not in a form
4that would be useful to the court.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think I have probably removed a
6couple of hours by saying that you should deal with bundle
8 MR IRVING: By way of submission.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not say I have removed. I have
10postponed the two hours it will probably take. So I am
11not critical by of you for having run out, but you have
12run out. There is nothing you want to deal with now?
13I cannot immediately think of anything. Mr Rampton, can
15 MR RAMPTON: I cannot. I think it would be unsatisfactory for
16a number of reasons for Mr Irving to go back into the
17witness box ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it would.
19 MR RAMPTON: --- for further cross-examination.
20 MR IRVING: I would be quite happy to go back into the witness
22 MR RAMPTON: No. I was going to offer to cross-examine him
23tomorrow, but your Lordship said, no, that is not a good
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is even less a good idea now.
26 MR RAMPTON: So do I. All I can suggest is that we go away and
1prepare, is it Dr Fox tomorrow?
2 MR IRVING: He is coming tomorrow morning.
3 MR RAMPTON: He will not be very long.
4 MR IRVING: Because he will not be allowed to adumbrate on the
5matters that he was going to I think.
6 MR RAMPTON: That is a matter for his Lordship, but if he
7strays much beyond what is in his written statement then
8I shall have something to say.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not yet re-read his statement.
10 MR RAMPTON: It is quite a long statement. It is somewhat
11representative, but it is quite long. Normally speaking
12nowadays, judge alone particularly, the witness statement
13stands as the evidence and if I do not cross-examine the
14witness goes away again.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I have not played it quite in that way.
16 MR RAMPTON: There is flexibility.
17 MR IRVING: As he is an expert on the police decodes, he is one
18of the world's leading experts on that, I had intended
19asking him questions about those, but if Mr Rampton
21 MR RAMPTON: I would need to know what he was going to say.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to thrash this out? If he maybe
23not going to be able to give any admissible evidence, it
24is better that he does not have to come all the way here.
25Do you want to have an argument about it now?
26 MR RAMPTON: No. I have nothing to say about what evidence he
1might give about decodes because it is not in his witness
2statement. If he is going to give evidence about the
3decrypts, I must have a witness statement in advance and
4he had better not come tomorrow at all.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Technically that is right. What is he going
6to say, do you hope?
7 MR IRVING: I was going to question him as an expert on the
8Bletchley Park operations and the extent of the decodes,
9and what one could have expected, what he has seen in the
10decodes, the work he has done on them. He has spent six
11months of his life reading right through them.
12 MR RAMPTON: I think in all the circumstances I do need to have
13prior notice of that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just focus to see quite what the issue
15is going to be? The evidence so far is, and correct me if
16I am wrong about this, is, yes, they would have been able
17to intercept and decode what you might call middle level
18kind of communications.
19 MR IRVING: Also from Himmler downwards, from Himmler to the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really the issue. I suppose you want
22to see how far you can take it up the ----
23 MR IRVING: We could usefully ask him, has he seen any Hitler
24orders of any nature whatsoever, and also what he has and
25what he has not seen in these archives.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is certainly relevant, but I think
1Mr Rampton does need to have advance notice so that he can
2consult his own experts and put his case in
4 MR RAMPTON: I would need, if this is to be taken seriously in
5the context of this case, which I can see it might be ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is certainly relevant.
7 MR RAMPTON: I quite accept it is relevant. I need to have
8chapter and verse from Dr Fox on paper. I then need to
9have time to have the accuracy of what he says checked by
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is fair.
12 MR RAMPTON: I really cannot just accept it like that.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If they were intercepted, I am surprised they
14have not surfaced.
15 MR IRVING: If what has surfaced.
16? MR JUSTICE GRAY: If high level messages from Himmler and so
17were intercepted at Bletchley on matters relevant to this
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, with respect, I have brought to the
20attention of your Lordship already the ones of December
211st and December 4th 1941 where Himmler orders, says to
22Jackelm, "You have exceeded your authority and the
23guidelines. Any further arbitrary actions will be
24punished", you will remember.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was a Bletchley intercept, was it?
26 MR IRVING: That was from Himmler to Jackelm intercepted by the
1British, yes. It is a very important message on which
2I rely very strongly. It indicates that one would have
3expected messages to be there.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I say, it is plainly relevant. But I do
5not suggest you need to do it in huge detail given the
6pressures you are under.
7 MR IRVING: I did not want to go beyond the actual messages I
8have already produced, my Lord. I wanted to ask him then
9on the basis of his expertise what else, what the scope of
10the documentation is and has he seen anything, and does
11the documentation cover the entire spectrum from the most
12trivial matters like parking tickets, all the way up to
13these mass shootings on the Eastern Front, and so on.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I think Mr Rampton is entitled to
16 MR IRVING: A little notice.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- probably on one page, like one of the
18things you do for me, just really giving the gist of what
19he is going to say. That is enough.
20 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I do, but I also will likely need to time to
21get some help with it because I cannot ask questions about
22something about which I know nothing. If I am told that
23I should not take Dr Fox's word for what he says, then
24I have to go and do some -- somebody has got to go and do
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see that. We may have to lose Dr Fox from
1his Friday slot.
2 MR IRVING: We cannot do this by Friday quite clearly. In that
3case I will have to introduce him sometime next week, but
4I will fax to the Defence solicitors a one page proof of
5what he intends to say.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Fox is relatively available, is he?
7 MR IRVING: Except on Mondays. He cannot come on Monday. He
8is a lecturer I think at the University College or Jews
9College or University of Canterbury somewhere.
10 MR RAMPTON: Can I suggest that he be deferred until after
11Professor Evans has finished?
12 MR IRVING: Yes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is a good thing anyway.
14 MR RAMPTON: It is much better from your Lordship's point of
15view and from the Professor's point of view.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are not sitting on Friday that is now
18 MR RAMPTON: No.
19 MR IRVING: I hope your Lordship does not begrudge me the fact
20that I have not got another 45 minutes?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. We will adjourn now.
22 (The witness stood down)
23(The court adjourned until Monday, 14th February 2000)