Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 181

<< 1-5181 >>
    Yet I am the one who is pilloried in the book by the
 1second Defendant to ensure that I was included because
 2I was particularly dangerous?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is my impression, having read the second
 4Defendant's book very carefully, that you figure only
 5relatively peripherally in that, too, and it does not
 6devote a great deal of space to you in your work.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think, my Lord, that if we may take the lunch
 8adjournment very shortly, then I will come back this
 9afternoon and we will go as far as your Lordship permits
10through the bundle of documents which is known to your
11Lordship as Global.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to consider how much you can go
13into, because I have not looked through bundle E yet, but
14I am conscious we have not really made a huge amount of
15progress this morning so far.
16 MR IRVING:     Well, I have been stopped in my tracks dead by the
17delivery last night of these 200 pages of answers.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that is so, I am not sure that is a
19complete explanation, but if that is so, well so be it.
20What are you proposing to do with the rest of bundle E,
21that is really the point?
22 MR IRVING:     To step through it, picking out key documents to
23indicate and to ask his opinion as to whether this does
24not indicate that there has been a concerted endeavour to
25suppress my rights to publish and to write, to research
26and to lecture.

.   P-106

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By the one or other of the Defendants?
 2 MR IRVING:     By one or other of the Defendant and in the light
 3of his own expert knowledge.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about the latter bit.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I really do have a reservation about this. It is
 6not my place to make comments about the latitude that your
 7Lordship has so far given, Mr Irving. I have a place,
 8however, to say something if I see the afternoon wasted
 9away with this witness, who is a professional historian,
10being asked questions about what hand the Defendant might
11or might not have had in the international Jewish
12conspiracy to shut Mr Irving up. That is not something
13that Professor Evans has written about. So, for all
14I know, he knows nothing about it. If there is one
15question: "Do you know anything about it"?, and he is
16allowed to answer it now and he says, "No", then that is
17the end of the matter.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Leave aside whether it is right for Professor
19Evans to be asked questions about this because that,
20I agree, is something that we have to tackle, but just
21supposing for the sake of argument that it is right, that
22one of the Defendants has been trying, in some way, to
23sabotage Mr Irving, it does not matter in what way, can
24you say that is wholly irrelevant?
25 MR RAMPTON:     No, I did not say that. I said that it is not a
26proper matter for the cross-examination of this witness.

.   P-107

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You see, I am anxious, and Mr Irving is
 2anxious obviously, that he should not be, as it were, shut
 3out from making this point. I think the best way of
 4dealing with it is to let him make it as a matter of
 5submission by reference to the documents in bundle E.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Of course I agree with that. It is only relevant,
 7of course, if we should lose the action.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course, but it is relevant.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Just as a matter of hypothesis we did, then it
10would be relevant quite likely, some way of wounding or
11something, I do not know. I have not really thought about
12it. The right thing for him to have done, but he did not
13do it, was to give evidence about it in-chief and then
14make submissions about at the end of the case by reference
15to the document.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would be inclined to let him give further
18 MR RAMPTON:     I am not going to insist on it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that is the right way. It can be done as
20a matter of submission, as far as I am concerned.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Equally, as far as I am concerned.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the argument against that ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you say about that?
24 MR IRVING:     Although I hear what Mr Rampton says about I should
25have done it as evidence-in-chief, but your Lordship will
26remember clearly that we were only informed two days ago

.   P-108

 1that they were not going to call Professor Levin or
 2Professor Eatwell.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not, if I may say so, an answer to
 4the point that has just been made. You do not know your
 5way around the law, perhaps, as well as some, but the
 6answer is that this evidence all goes to damage and the
 7only person, or broadly speaking the only person who can
 8give evidence about damage, is the Claimant, yourself.
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it is really a matter for your own
11evidence. I do not think it is a helpful use of the
12court's time, or indeed Professor Evans's time, to take
13him through a whole lot of documents which he would
14probably not really be able to make much of anyway, when
15really it is for you to make the points you want to make
16in your evidence, and Mr Rampton is not contesting your
17entitlement to add to the evidence you have already given,
18so I think that is a better way of dealing with it.
19 MR IRVING:     Very well. Shall I do that this afternoon then.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You would rather break off now? I am easy
21about that.
22 MR IRVING:     I think it would make it an appropriate place to
23break off now.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it is a natural break, let us do that, but
25I think this afternoon let us move on beyond bundle E and
26you can come back to that, whatever turns out to be a

.   P-109

 1convenient moment. Shall we adjourn now and return at a
 2quarter to two.
 3 (1.45 p.m.)
 4(Luncheon Adjournment)
 5Professor Evans, recalled.
 6Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 7 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord. There is one minor point
 8I wanted to pick up from remarks that Mr Rampton made
 9shortly towards the end where he referred to black
10servants. My Lord, you may remember the phrase.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not remember.
12 MR IRVING:     The phrase he used is black servants and this may
13be indicative of the mind cast on that side of the
14courtroom. I certainly do not regard blacks as servants.
15They were my equals. I employed these Pakistanis, Indians
16Sri Lankans and so on as research assistants and personal
17assistants. They were not servants in any kind of menial
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Witness, you may have heard me described by
21Professor Donald Watt and others as Britain's most
22disliked historian. Does that surprise you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you direct me to where he actually said that?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. We can move straight on to the next question.
25You do not like me, do you?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have no personal feelings about you at all, Mr Irving.

.   P-110

<< 1-5181 >>