Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 181

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    I wholeheartedly agree, my Lord. Times have
 1definitely changed in this respect and they have changed
 2for the better.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must judge you by the standards of perhaps
 4not 2000, but the standards at the times when you made the
 5remarks you did make which is usually in the 80s and 90s.
 6 MR IRVING:     But we have a problem here. I have tried to
 7extract from the witness a definition of his criteria for
 8the anti-Semitism that he accuses me of.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Perfectly proper.
10 MR IRVING:     And we have received only waffle, if I may put it
11like that.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you can say that later, but do not say
13it now. It is unhelpful.
14 MR IRVING:     And I have tried to ask for what specific instances
15of anti-Semitism he has found in my private diaries which,
16surely, are the closest to my state of mind, and we have
17found five words, I think.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He said it has not really been his pigeon.
19He is here for other matters. You do not have to accept
20that answer, but it is his evidence.
21 MR IRVING:     But the charge is levelled, my Lord, at me by this
22witness and by the others and it is a charge that people
23very happily make. I say that the charge of anti-Semitism
24is the last resort of the scoundrel, very frequently, and
25it is one that sticks, rather like being called a
26Holocaust denier.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do not seek to dispute that at this
 2stage, but what we are on at the moment, Mr Irving, is
 3whether you are entitled to adduce effectively in
 4evidence, through the cross-examination of Professor
 5Evans, alleged anti-Semitism on the part of Lord Halifax
 6and Winston Churchill, and I think that is wholly
 8 MR IRVING:     Impermissible, very well. Can I at least then
 9adduce evidence that the First Defendant has published
10books which contain grossly anti-Semitic passages?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not admit -- why do you say that is
13 MR IRVING:     Biblical passage.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a sort of pot calling the kettle black.
15 MR IRVING:     Casting the mote out of their own eye first and
16referring it to John Buchan's '39 Steps', for example.
17I am sure your Lordship is familiar with them. They are
18the most appalling passages.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are clutching at a bit of a straw there,
20are you not? When was that published?
21 MR IRVING:     Not recently, but John Buchan became Governor
22General of Canada.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am trying to give you a lot of latitude,
24Mr Irving. I think I am perhaps beginning to give you too
25much. I really just do not think you can just start going
26into alleged anti-Semitism on the part of other people, or

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 1other companies.
 2 MR IRVING:     The Defendants in this case have published books
 3which are anti-Semitic in my submission and yet -- I will
 4merely ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let me hear Mr Rampton on that because ----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is a kind of insanity. I feel as
 7though I was in one of Lewis Caroll's book. Mr Irving
 8brought this action in respect of words published by my
 9clients. The only defence is that what is said is true,
10amongst them that Mr Irving is an anti-Semitic. What can
11it matter that there may have been some author from the
12distant past, the 39 Steps, who also, on some occasion,
13might have made a remark as an anti-Semite?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wholly agree about John Buchan in the
151930s, or whenever it was.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Suppose my client has published the works of an
17anti-Semite yesterday. How could it bear upon the
18question of whether or not Mr Irving is an anti-Semite,
19save to the extent that I then stood up and said: "Well
20that Penguin book is not anti-Semitic"?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right. I am trying to give
22Mr Irving the benefit of the doubt, but Mr Irving, I
23cannot let this thing ----
24 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we bought a copy of this book published by
25Penguin Books two days ago at Books Et Cetera.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If your odds are still on John Buchan, then

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 1that is really absolutely, if I may say so, hopeless as a
 2point, hopeless.
 3 MR IRVING:     Should political correctness not have required them
 4to at least excise these horrendous passages from that
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. Mr Irving, I am afraid we are going to
 7have to move on. I am against you on this.
 8 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the Holocaust, Professor
 9Evans? Are you familiar with the bibliography on
10Holocaust Denial which has been prepared by a specialist
11in this matter, New York City University John Drobniski,
12I think?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say not very, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that there is such a bibliography?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a bibliography that is available on the Internet,
17would you accept that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has gone through several editions?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this bibliography -- is it called Holocaust Denial
22Literature -- is a bibliography?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is true, yes, to my recollection.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it compiled by John A Drobniski, D-R-O-B-N-I-S-K-I, in
25conjunction with Carol Goldman and two or three others?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is right, but I have to say I am not very

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 1familiar with this bibliography.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I tell you, therefore, that my name does not figure in
 3this entire bibliography as having published a Holocaust
 4Denial work, would this surprise you in the view of the
 5expert report that you have written? Is that a proper
 6question, my Lord?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I did not compile the bibliography. I am not
 9answerable for what they think or they do not think.
10I reached my own conclusions about this in my report.
11 MR IRVING:     You accept that he is Professor John Drobniski,
12Assistant Professor and Reference Librarian at York
13College in the City University of New York?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you say he is, yes, I accept that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that his bibliography contains many thousands of
16entries of books, journals, learned papers and articles?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not really want to speculate about it, but you
18have yourself said that the Holocaust has always been a
19rather peripheral element in what you have written
20yourself, so in a way, it would not be surprising if
21somebody wanted to draw up a bibliography of works to
22which Holocaust Denial was central.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yet I am the one who is pilloried in the book by the
24Second Defendant and published by the first Defendants in
25this case, and Yehuda Bauer, as we know from the document
26which is before the court, specifically requested the

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