Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 214

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    Will you accept that Tegas is a substance which is nine
 1German Army used?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I have no ground to accept or dispute. If you want
 3to present that to the court or whatever, I cannot comment
 4on that because I simply do not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the other items were, in fact, proprietary fumigation
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, does this decode tell you
 8anything about whether it was a lethal or a non-lethal use
 9of these gases, assuming they were gasses or fumigation
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They say nothing to that regard and I do not know of any
12lethal gassings in Riga, except for the gas vans which
13gassed with carbon monoxide.
14 MR IRVING:     I just need one further piece of evidence. Have
15you read the Tesch trial at all, the trial of Dr Bruno
16Tesch by the British?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not read that?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the word "training" indicates the people were being
21trained in the use of fumigation agents or could be both?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They were engaged in the training of something.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am going to go through the remaining pages of your
24report. We have started at I think round about page 24.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you go further, Mr Irving, shall we
26just decide what should be the home for this? I will be

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 1guided by the Defendants, Mr Rampton.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you have any suggestions about where this
 4clip should go?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord ----
 6 MR IRVING:     L, I think.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     --- what we will do, if your Lordship will just
 8put it all at the back of L for the moment, we will take
 9out the ones which are chronological.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Thank you very much.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, so you have an overview, I have now
12finished the general part and what may seem to your
13Lordship rather vague and eccentric (as the opposite of
14concentric) questioning. We are now focusing just on the
15report. I think I will be finishing this half way through
16the afternoon.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not hurry at all. My problem was simply
18you were assuming too much knowledge on my part.
19 MR IRVING:     I was hoping to hit a few nails in while this
20witness was here.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. You are perfectly entitled to do
23 MR IRVING:     And we will do the same with Professor Longrich
24when he comes. (To the witness): Paragraph 4.4.1, which
25is on page 24 of your report, Professor?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Once again, simply stated, I do not deny that these
 2shootings occurred and these killings occurred. All I am
 3looking at here are two specific matters. First of all,
 4the scale, and, secondly, the quality of the evidence that
 5is available to us. That is what these questions are all
 6going to. You say: "The commanders in the field were
 7explicitly told to report extensively" -- this is your
 8middle sentence -- "as both Hitler and Himmler were to be
 9kept well informed."
10     Now, did you have a specific reason for
11including Hitler in that sentence, or what I am asking for
12is what is the proof that Hitler had asked to be kept well
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The document that we cited of August 1st 1941, I do not
15say Hitler asked, I said the document there said Hitler
16was to receive, you know, a regular supply of reports, the
17current reports.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this paragraph refers only to the systematic mass
19murder, does it not? It does not refer to the
20Einsatzgruppen's other operations?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If you want to know the work of the Einsatzgruppen and one
22major piece of the work of the Einsatzgruppen was the
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I do not want to repeat the discussion we had about
25that document yesterday, but we concluded that the
26document was looking for visual materials?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To supplement, it was following on the already existing
 2policy of handing on these reports and they wanted to
 3fatten them.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I guess what I am asking really is that the only document
 5you rely on when you say that both Hitler and Himmler were
 6to be kept informed?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the one for Hitler, I am not ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not interested in Himmler. We have accepted that
 9Himmler needed to be kept informed.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So solely based on the 1st August 1941?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the documentary evidence we have, yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Thank you.
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of a wider thing, of course, Heydrich then
14summarized these, and that we have the monthly summaries
15that are spread out and copied as many as 100 for report,
16that are distributed to various Ministries, and the
17Foreign Office report will be seen by 30 or 40 people. So
18there does seem to be a great eagerness to get the word
19out. This is not something within the government that
20these reports are terribly shielded.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with Hitler's order on secrecy, are you
22not, of January 1940, the need-to-know order, that Hitler
23issued the order saying that only those were to be told of
24secret operations or events ----
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen reference to it. I do not believe I have read
26it myself, but I have seen reference to it.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that would have tended to keep information
 2compartmentalized, would it not?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These always listed who was to receive, so there was -- it
 4was not circulated on the street corner. They had a list
 5of who was authorized to receive it.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you say now in paragraph 4.4.2, the next paragraph:
 7"Such a thorough documentation does not exist concerning
 8the fate of the Jews from the rest of Europe". In other
 9words, we are reliant on postwar materials, eyewitness
10accounts, inferences, are we?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are reliant on that systematic documentation in the
12sense we do not have a complete run of reports like we
13have of Einsatzgruppen. We have some documents that have
14survive here, some there. We are reliant on less complete
15documentation, though some pockets of documentation that
16are very suggestive and, in addition, postwar testimony as
17well. Documentation, for instance, concerning the
18deportation operations is fairly rich in some countries.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you are referring to the railroad information?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I say "concerning the fate of the Jews from the rest
21of Europe", we have a mixed bag of documentation, rather
22than a fairly rich and steady run. I mean, Einsatzgruppen
23reports, to have a complete series, it is fairly rare for
24an historian.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not have that rich ----

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