Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 214

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    No. I think the criticism is more focused
 1word "rumour" because it was in Weidenfeld when
 2"Schrecken" does not mean "rumour". That I think is the
 4 MR IRVING:     So, my Lord, does this translator.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow that. In a sense, this is
 6beside the point.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One have would it to ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is my feeling. I have the point you
 9seek to make. I have told you what I think about it.
10 MR IRVING:     The point I am seeking to make is that he is not a
11Holocaust denier. He is not perverse. Others also use a
12milder version of it than the outright terror, which is
13possible translation of "Schrecken" but not the only one.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One way to deal with it is to get the Burrin original and
15see what he says in French, because this is what would
16reflect what he was thinking, and then we could decide
17whether Burrin, as a historian or a historically ignorant
18translator, using a different version to save himself the
19time from a responsible translation, is at fault here.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     While you have the bundle in front of you, we can now
21dispose of the bundle in a few minutes, page 32 of the
22bundle, my Lord, I am just using this witness in order to
23introduce a document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are doing it in exactly an appropriate
25way, as I say.
26 MR IRVING:     Page 32 and page 33: Are you familiar with the

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 1Harvard University? Of course you are.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that their library at
 4Harvard University is called the Weidener library?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this appear to be a list of books which the library
 7has in its card file by an author called David Irving?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And do there appear to be 47 books by that author in the
10Harvard University library?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     47 entries. Some of them are duplicate.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words, 47 copies of my books are in Harvard
13University Library?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a commendable total, would you say?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a large number.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many books by Professor Browning are there in the
18Harvard University Library? Have you any estimate?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know if they have any of mine!
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, joking apart, what I get out of
21this is that you are thought by Harvard University or the
22Wagner Library to be the sort of author of whose many
23books they have a large number in stock. I think that is
24a fair point for you to make.
25 MR IRVING:     Taken in conjunction with one of the earlier
26paragraphs of Professor Evans' expert report, my Lord --

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 1I am sure your Lordship will remember it -- Professor
 2Evans went to the British Library and found that my book
 3"Hitler's War" was kept on the pornographic and
 4restricted list. Apparently, it is not the case in
 5respected institutions in the United States.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Professor Evans makes points like that,
 7you are entitled to make this sort of point in reply.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would just add that Harvard University tries to have a
 9complete list so they will buy everything. It does not
10reflect an endorsement of the authors by virtue of the
11fact they have them available in the library.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, of course.
13 MR IRVING:     Would you turn to page 34 of that bundle? These
14are just odds and ends and this is the appropriate way to
15use them, I think. It is the last page. My Lord, this is
16the German original and also I have translated it into
17English for your Lordship.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very helpful. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:     It is German police decodes. It is Traffic of
20November 13th 1941, is that correct? Intercepted and
21decoded a month later roughly. There are two radio
22messages here, is that correct?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Item 10 and item 32, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Item 10 and 32. Would you agree that item 10 appears to
25be a radio message sent from the SS Chief Medical Officer
26in Riga to the firm of Tesch and Stabenow in Hamburg?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not see the Riga. I see radio message of the SS at
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The last line says: "Signed, Senior Medical Officer"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was looking at the top.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree this is from the Senior Medical Officer
 6attached to the Chief SS Officer in Riga and it is going
 7to the firm of Tesch and Stabenow in Hamburg?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Via the Hamburg SS, yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, sorry, can I just ask you this?
10It is called a decode. Is this is an intercept?
11 MR IRVING:     This is a British intercept.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A Bletchley intercept?
13 MR IRVING:     From Bletchley Park. One of this myriad of
14hundreds of thousands of messages, but it is typical of
15the kind of information that is there waiting to be fished
16out of the Public Record Office. Would you agree that
17this shows a request for information on which Zyklon was
18dispatched for the use of a man called Dr Tesch?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know who Tesch and Stabenow were?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are people involved -- no, I do not know for sure. I
22will not say. I mean, I have heard their names.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right to say that they are the firm in Hamburg which
24had the monopoly of supplies of Zyklon and other
25fumigation agents east of the River Elb?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I remember the names in connection with the production of

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 1Zyklon-B. I could not testify that they were in Hamburg
 2or had a monopoly.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that this message is referring to dispatch, not only
 4of Zyklon, but also substances referred to as Tegas,
 5Athylo, Trito?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are referring to three other products. Whether they
 7are gas or not, we do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept they are other fumigation products?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I will accept that they are referring to three products.
12I do not see anything that says what their purpose is.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and the message also shows that Dr Tesch who is doing
14something in Riga connected with training?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Obviously, they did not get the complete message, but they
16do have the word "training" in Riga, at least as part of a
17garbled part of the intercept.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that the inference to be drawn from that telegram is
19that people were being trained in the use of fumigation
20agents, both lethal and non-lethal?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Since I do not know what Tegas, Athylo.D and Trito are,
22I can only say that there are three products in addition
23to Zyklon being dispatched.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that Tegas is a substance which is nine
25parts of ethylene oxide to one part of carbon dioxide? It
26is one of the proprietary fumigation agents that the

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