Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 214

<< 1-5211-214 >>
    Yes, and that when Himmler is, therefore, talking
 1interpreted that is where you and I begin to differ.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We differ a great deal on how one interprets that, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, Professor, I remind you that yesterday I showed you
 4one coloured page photocopy of an intercept, did I not,
 5and I suggested to you that we have hundreds of thousands
 6of such intercepts in the British archives now, and
 7I suggested that neither my expert, Dr John Fox or Richard
 8Brightman or any of the experts who have waded through
 9these hundreds of thousands of intercepts of top level and
10medium level and low level messages, is this correct, has
11found even one inference, one document, which supports the
12inference that Hitler was behind this?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not read through them, but no one has said that
14these intercepts, the place that we have found such a
15thing, and we have not found the smoking pistol document.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the more documents that do come our way, whether from
17Minsk or Riga or Moscow or from Bletchley Park or
18wherever, and yet we still fail to find even a luke warm
19gun, let alone a smoking gun, indicates that possibly
20I may be right and my opponents may be incorrect, or, at
21any rate, I am justified in suspecting, would you agree?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, because I do not think one would ever expect to find
23such a thing in a radio intercept. These are, from what I
24have seen of them, very specific things. They are not
25general points at which, for instance, Hitler has ordered
26Barbarossa or decisions of that level.

.   P-61

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer -- I am now coming on to Adolf Eichmann, unless,
 2my Lord, you wish to ask further questions?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. Take your own course.
 4 MR IRVING:     I now come on to Adolf Eichmann. What reliance can
 5be placed on his writings, do you think?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have used him as a very important source because we
 7have ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, understandably.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- a collection of documents from him that stretch over a
10period of time and were given under different conditions
11before his arrest in Argentina under arrest by the
12Israelis, the private notes that are part of his
13attorney's, Nachlass that is in Koblenz, that subject to
14the confidentiality that were only between him and his
15attorney and were not in the possession of the Israelis.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a lot of paper then?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a lot of -- and now, apparently, we have learned
18there is about 1300 or more pages of notes that we have
19never seen yet.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you were in Koblenz, did you have the opportunity to
21look at the 600 pages that I gave to the German government
22which I found in Argentina?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I have not seen those. I do not know what the
24overlap is between those and ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are similar to Sasson material. Would you
26characterize for the court what kind of witness Adolf

.   P-62

 1Eichmann was in all these stages? What kind of person --
 2was he robust, was he servile, just characterize him.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that there are elements of both, that he is
 4very robust and contentious in protesting against certain
 5aspects of what he is being accused. He has no problem
 6saying Hoess is lying about him, that he did not be
 7involved there; that he engages in a vigorous denial of
 8certain parts of the documentation the Israeli
 9interrogators at court show him.
10     On the other hand, he comes and says things that
11there is no documentation for, admits to things that they
12would never have known otherwise, except that they are
13repeated consistently in all of his stories, and it is a
14story he sticks to from beginning to end for which we
15would not know other than that he consistently told that
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. There are plausible elements and there are
18implausible elements, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In any eyewitness testimony, there will be elements that
20are more plausible than others. I think a fair amount of
21the Eichmann testimony is plausible. Again, it would
22depend on when he is reacting to particular documents they
23present, sometimes he takes a very defensive position, and
24in other areas he is very self-incriminating and very
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hannah Arred in her book "The Banality of Evil" I think

.   P-63

 1refers to him as being almost complacent and compliant and
 2anxious to please?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not agree with her characterization there.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not agree with that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He is quite vigorous in defending himself in many
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I had the dubious fortune some time ago of coming into
 8possession of his personal copy of Rudolf Hoess' memoirs.
 9I will pass to you, if I may?
10 MR RAMPTON:     May I enquire whether this is, I do not know, this
11is an entirely open enquiry, whether this is part of
12Mr Irving's discovery?
13 MR IRVING:     It was in my box called "Judenfrage" but if you
14wish ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the original you are handing up, is
17 MR IRVING:     This is a photocopy of it which I have retained, my
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A photocopy of the version you discovered or
20were given?
21 MR IRVING:     That is correct, my Lord. It is only interesting
22in one very minor respect.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is what I thought.
24 MR IRVING:     Pages 13 and 14 of your Lordship's little bundle
25which I gave your Lordship this morning. This is, of
26course, the published edition of Hoess' memoirs which you

.   P-64

 1are probably familiar with?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The handwriting on that has been identified as the
 4handwriting of Adolf Eichmann, as is evident also from the
 5internal evidence of the comments that he makes. The
 6original is in the possession of a friend of mine in
 7Germany. He bought it in a store.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     OK. I am, of course, not an handwriting expert.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, you are happy with this, are you?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And so I cannot confirm or deny.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have never seen it before. I do not have a
13 MR IRVING:     I just wish to refer to page 14.
14 MR RAMPTON:     But what is puzzling me about this is if this is a
15selective use of the document, it may be that there are a
16considerable number of other comments by Eichmann of which
17Mr Irving is aware on these memoirs which we ought to see
18because they are relevant.
19 MR IRVING:     I would be very happy to make available a copy to
20the Defence and I will leave this copy with them overnight
21and they can make a copy if they wish.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is fair. I think Mr Rampton is happy
23you should make the point that you make on these two
25 MR IRVING:     I just wish to put this to the witness. I
26just draw your attention, witness, to page handwritten 14

.   P-65

<< 1-5211-214 >>