Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 214

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    If there is a document, can we go -- I am
 1them ----
 2 MR IRVING:     It certainly be referenced by Longerich. It is not
 3referenced by this witness in his report, but it is one
 4with which he is quite familiar, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not make it any easier, but if we can
 6identify and locate these documents.
 7 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask one question on this conference
 8really which is -- are you familiar with the conference to
 9which I am referring?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is for my benefit rather than yours or
11Professor Browning's.
12 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the conference to which I am
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is July 16th conference?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     July 16th. Hitler, Rosenberg, Martin Bormann wrote a
16memorandum on it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Lammers, I believe, was present.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Lammers was present, Himmler was present?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, Himmler is not present. Himmler met with Hitler on
2015th and left for Lublin.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am going to ask you to pause. I
22think I really must have the document, if only a reference
23to it.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a Nuremberg document. I think it is L...
25 MR RAMPTON:     I can help. Page 57. Longerich 1, paragraph

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Irving, but
 2I have to try to digest all this and it is easier.
 3 MR IRVING:     Problem is, my Lord, that both the witness and
 4I have all this in our heads.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but it is quite important that you get
 6it into my head too.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is not an easy task.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to hear you say that.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship wants to see the German?
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the reason I said this is because it has
11taken me 35 years to get it into my head, the whole
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It has only taken me nine months! It is 4.2, if
15your Lordship would like to see another splodgy German
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be that now you have given me the
18reference here, I can follow it up. Is it paragraph 15?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Paragraph 15.7.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then it is in the transcript at least so
21I can go back to it. Yes, Mr Irving, follow that up if
22you want to.
23 MR IRVING:     All that I want to say is, I mean, I have no idea
24where this question and answer is now going to lead. It
25may harm, it may help me. This was a very important, top
26level conference deciding areas of responsibility in the

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 1Eastern territories; is that right?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Immediately after that conference, the next, they issued
 3the Fuhrer decrees delineating the responsibilities of
 4Himmler and Rosenberg, the SS and the civil administration
 5for the occupied territories, Soviet territories.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this, effectively, gave Himmler absolutely police
 7control over all these regions, is that correct, the
 8executive control?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It put the SS in a very dominant position.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the rear areas?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Actually, I think it gave him powers -- at least
12Einsatzgruppen already had powers to operate all the way
13up to the front, and this established in a sense that that
14would become permanent as the SS positions are changed
15from mobile units to a permanent police structure on
16occupied territory.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think that, Professor, you once mentioned that the
18Jewish problem was mentioned in this conference, but that
19is not correct, is it?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think he does mention that. He does talk about
21"shooting anyone who looks askance at us and isn't it
22good that Stalin has called for a guerilla war because it
23gives us the pretext", I believe is the word, "to shoot
24anyone that we want?". I do not believe that I have said
25that ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is a very interesting phrase. What was the phrase he

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 1used? "It gives us the pretext to shoot"----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "To shoot anyone who so much as looks askance at us" I
 3believe is the ...
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Schief schaut"
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The German is there on page 57 if you want to
 6look at the footnote.
 7 MR IRVING:     Effectively, "Anybody who stands in our way or
 8looks like he might stand in our way"?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, it does not even say "stand in our way", "looks
10askance at us", I believe, is a much wider shooting
11licence than "stands in our way".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What does "nur schief schaut" mean?
13 MR IRVING:     "Looks askance", literally.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Gives us a twisted look" or "looks askance at us".
15 MR IRVING:     Anybody whose face does not fit would be another
16way of saying it? It is a pretty broad kind of
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is an open shooting licence.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but there is no reference to the Jewish problem at
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not a specific reference, no.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Just that Himmler has now given, effectively, carte
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will deal with that, I think, in more detail, my Lord,
26when we come to Longerich?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You were still asking me my view of the decision-making
 2process. Do you wish me to continue?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     If you have had after thoughts, yes. My view (and
 5I would wish you to correct it) is that the German Army
 6provided the impetus for these orders, and that this is
 7evidenced in the papers of the German High Command where
 8the position papers are, effectively, written by German
 9Army officers and also from the diary of General Franz
10Halder. In other words, that the initiative did not come
11from Hitler?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would disagree. I would say that the open invitation
13for these proposals comes from Hitler and, in terms of
14guidelines and policies, it is the response of the SS and
15the military and the economic planners to turn into
16reality this vague vision of a war of destruction in an
17ideological crusade against the Soviet Union.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you say you disagree, is this just a gut feeling or
19do you have any specific document you want to reference?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think we have both the Jodl/Hitler meeting and Jodl's
21response, and we have the meeting of March 30th with the
22Generals in which he again makes clear to them his desire
23to have a war of destruction, a war that is not fought by
24the ground rules of a conventional war.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The latter meeting is, of course, recorded in detail in
26the diary of General Halder, is it not?

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