Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 214

<< 1-5211-214 >>
    --- for Barbarossa, conduct of troops. The date
 1and translated on page 5 of part 2 of Longerich.
 2 MR IRVING:     Yes. This is not a Commissart order, but it is
 3very much a parallel document.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. That is very helpful.
 5 MR IRVING:     It effectively says that ordinary court procedures
 6will not apply and this kind of thing.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much, Mr Rampton. I was not
 8aware of that at all.
 9MR IRVING (To the witness): Are you familiar with those
10guidelines of May 19th 1941? Can you answer questions
11about it, roughly, were they specifically anti-Jewish in
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are, I would say, three key orders, one is the
14Commissart order, one is the order concerning military
15jurisdiction and then there is the troop, guidelines for
16the troops, in which "Jews", simply the term "Jews", is
17put in the same line with saboteurs, guerrillas, so that,
18in effect, Jews are created as a class that can be equated
19on the basis of who they are with other targets who are
20defined by what they do. This, of course, is the essence
21of a racial genocide.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the origins of these three documents
23you have mentioned?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you mention them in your own report
25actually, do you not?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure if I mention the three documents.

.   P-46

 1 MR IRVING:     I have not come across them in this witness report.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Paragraph 4.2.1, I thought it was.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I may have mentioned them briefly.
 4 MR IRVING:     I would have remembered them if -- I think they
 5must be in the Longerich report, my Lord.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     It is in Longerich.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is certainly there, but this is another
 8guideline, is it not, at 4.21?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     4.2.1, the Heydrich order of July 2rd, which we discussed
10yesterday, is his summary to the higher SS and police
11leaders of his oral instructions to the Einsatzgruppen
12leaders on June 17th, five days before the invasion. This
13is when he includes among those to be shot will be Jews in
14state and party positions.
15 MR IRVING:     This is the document your Lordship wanted
16translated yesterday.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These are guidelines at that stage?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is the guidelines of early July -- in fact, the
19guidelines of late June, prior to the invasion, because he
20is summarising what was already given to the
21Einsatzgruppen on the eve of the invasion.
22 MR IRVING:     This is Heydrich, of course, who is two or three
23rungs down the hierarchy, is he not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Very close to Himmler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The question, witness, which I asked you just before
26that little discursive, are you familiar with the military

.   P-47

 1planning documents or working papers that led to these
 2three documents we were just talking about, the
 3guidelines, not these ones, but the May 19th guidelines?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have, I think, briefly seen in the Hans Adolf Jacobsen
 5study his account of the emergence of the Commissart order
 6and the Krasvnik(?) article on the emergence of the
 7military jurisdiction order. I have not worked on those
 8in the archives, but I have seen other historians' studies
 9of those two particular cases.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the private diary of General Franz
11Halder, the Chief of the German Army General Staff?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have read parts of that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that in that private diary, which was
14written by him in shorthand (so it was of a very
15confidential nature) it emerges that the German Army were
16the source of the inspiration for those documents, in
17other words, it did not come from Hitler down to the Army;
18it went from the German Army effectively up to Hitler or
19up to the German High Command, they wanted ----
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot say that that was my impression from Halder, but
21I would have to disagree in the sense that we have
22Hitler/Jodl conversation in early March, in which Jodl
23then comes back to the Generals and says, "Hitler wants us
24to do something in terms of the" ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Commissarts?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- "Commissarts" and the negotiations over the shaping of

.   P-48

 1the military jurisdiction order comes I think from a
 2similar instigation from above, that the Army is not to be
 3involved in disciplining the behaviour of troops against
 4the civilian population which previously would have been
 5primed under martial law.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you identify Jodl to the court, please?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Jodl is, if I get it right, the Chief of Staff of the High
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he Chief of the Operations Staff at the German High
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     High Command, not the Army, the Arm Forces High Command,
12the global one.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if Hitler, as Supreme Commander, was having this
14discussion with the Chief of Staff of the German High
15Command, then it must have been a discussion of a military
16nature rather than ideological nature?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not if he wants the Army to take part in and not to be a
18problem concerning this war of destruction. If the
19military is to take part in a wider kind of war, not to
20conceive of this war is a war like they fought against the
21French, and that they are to remove themselves from or to
22give to their own officers a new understanding that
23certain kinds of behaviour, the troops will no longer be
24subject to the jurisdiction of military court martial and
25will not be criminalized. Now, this has to go to the
26Army. But that certainly cannot be said to be ----

.   P-49

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this is the military discipline?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but it is an issue of military discipline that is
 3completely related to the notion of this wider war of
 4destruction. It is not compartmentalized to military
 5operations but to the ideological war.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not likely, in fact, that Hitler would have these
 7discussions with the German High Command on the military
 8side of the problem and he would have similar discussions
 9with Himmler on the ideological side of the problem, and
10these documents only refer, therefore, to the military
11side of the problem.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I disagree totally. That certainly is the postwar plea of
13the German Generals of self-exculpation, but I think the
14documents we see is that he makes very clear to the
15Generals that this a multi-dimensional war, and that he
16does not compartmentalize. He wants the Army to revise
17its multiple court martial code. He wants the Army to
18take part in the finding of the Commissarts and either
19shooting them or turning them over to the SS, that he does
20not compartmentalize this war.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     We so far have not mentioned one very important conference
22that took place around this time after Barbarossa, which
23is the conference of July 16th 1941. You are familiar
24with this?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is a document, can we go -- I am
26quite keen to pick up these points and not deal with

.   P-50

<< 1-5211-214 >>