Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 214

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    It turns out to be beneficial. The rumour turns out to be
 1beneficial, that all the Jews are shot by the Germans.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you were asked to translate the word "rumour" into
 3English, what word would you use?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well gerucht would be the common one.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally this, and do you still have Dr Longerich's report
 6up there with you?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you turn to page 59?
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I fail to see under what wangle Mr Rampton
10is being allowed to produce this document to put it in? It
11has had no relevance at all of the cross-examination that
12I conducted.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may not have quite got to it yet. It is
14certainly relevant on the questioning so far on whether
15Schrecken is properly translated as "public rumour", which
16was one of the points we went through this morning.
17 MR IRVING:     A very tiny shoe horn for such a long document, my
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can promise you I am not going to plough
20through it unless I am shown other bits of it that are
21worth ploughing through.
22 MR IRVING:     This document was one of the ones that was put to
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is, as I understand it, one that is
25suggested was generated by the request.
26 MR IRVING:     I think the witness should be asked if there is any

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 1evidence that this document was one of the ones that was
 2put to him.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a fair point. I think that
 4question should be asked, whether there is any evidence
 5that this particular situation----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to come to that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you may have jumped the gun,
 8Mr Irving.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     These documents, taken in conjunction, affect
10three questions, Mr Irving's ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have through them. I remember them.
12 MR RAMPTON:     They all arise directly out of cross-examination.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I mentioned, Professor, that you have also got
15there report number 81 about which Mr Irving
16cross-examined you yesterday without producing the
17document. He has not got it there, but I can tell you.
18On page 14 it makes similar remarks about the 72, 90 per
19cent of the people having fled across the Urals?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This was one that was cited yesterday?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the day after. It is 12th September. We will hand
22those in later, if we may, my Lord. Can you turn to page
2359 of Longerich, part I?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, before we leave this, I am taking
25it that the reference to 70 to 90 per cent of the original
26refugees having fled is a reference supporting one of

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 1Mr Irving's points, which is that that was what happened
 2to quite a lot of the local Jews, namely they went into
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think we dispute that at all.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. We are agreed about that.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Oh absolutely. How many Jews do you think there
 7were in the Ukraine before the Germans got there?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know, but the total Soviet population of Jews was
 9probably around 5 million, and of course only the question
10of whether one or two million of those were murdered is
11really where you get the difference between five and six
12million victims of the Holocaust.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In your mind, I know this is probably a matter for his
14Lordship than for me, but maybe I can ask this. In your
15mind does it matter whether it is one million or two
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is for me, is it not?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Well, except in so far as it may impinge on the
19question of system, but I think that has been conceded so
20I need not pursue that. Page 59 of part I of
21Dr Longerich, do you have that?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Paragraph 16.4.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He writes this: "On 25th October, the year is 41, Hitler
26made the following remark at his table talk after he had

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 1once again made mention of his prophecy of 30th January
 21939. 'This criminal race has the 2 million dead from the
 3world war on its conscience, now hundreds of thousand. No
 4one can say to me we cannot send them into the morass.
 5Who then cares about our people? It is good if the terror
 6we are exterminating Jewry goes before us", and the word
 7for terror is Schrecken in German.
 8     You saw in report No. 80 the words the rumour
 9that the Germans shoot to kill all the Jews has
10advantages. You notice that that comes about a month and
11a bit before Hitler's table talk on the 25th. You have
12seen the Muller order of 1st August 1941. Is it
13legitimate in your mind as an historian to draw any
14inference about Hitler's reception and knowledge of these
15reports from that information?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We could say that there is a certain resonance. It is not
17a direct one, but it is an inference that the materials
18were getting to him and that the Table Talk might be a
19reflection of having read that.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we are good, cautious historians, we do not need leap
21to giant conclusions from little inferential sketches like
22that, do we?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We would say that this a possible inference.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Thank you. The Barbarossa guidelines are on -- if
25you have got Dr Longerich's report, can you turn to the
26second part of it on page 5 where in paragraph 2 he sets

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 1out a part of the guidelines for the conduct of the troops
 2in Russia of 19th May. That is about a month before
 3Barbarossa is actually launched, is it not?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He translates it as: "Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of
 6the National Socialist German people ... (reading to the
 7words) ... Germany's struggle.
 82. This struggle demands ruthless, energetic and drastic
 9measures against the Bolshevik agitators, guerillas
10saboteurs and Jews as well as the complete removal of all
11active and passive resistance". The German is at footnote
1210 at the bottom of the page and I have two questions
13about this. Professor Longerich translates the German as
14"Those Jews were a separate or disjunctive category from
15all the rest of them". Do you understand?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look at the German at the bottom of page 10 and
18tell me whether you think he is right write about that?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the way I would translate it too.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How else could you do it?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure ----
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- is this a bit of an Aunt Sally? I mean,
25I am not sure what Mr Irving has made of this.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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