Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 214

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    First, I should say those who have looked at real
 1has 200,000 or 300,000, and then of course the unknown
 2question is just how many managed to flee. And of those
 3who fled were they then killed in White Russia or the
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am coming to some fleeing along the line because we had
 6that yesterday in report number 81, I think. What shall we
 7say then? 3 million? We are talking about Warthegau,
 8Generalgouvernment, Bialystok and Galicia in the
 9southeast. Total 3 million? Three and a half?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that the prewar population has been estimated
11about 3.3 million for all of Poland but in terms of the
12Generalgouvernment, Galicia, Bialystok, that would leave
13us I think around 3.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I repeat the question? You are quite right not to
15adopt Frank's figure and to give us what one might call a
16real figure. Has anybody done work to estimate how many
17Jews were left in this area of Europe after the war?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the difficult question because you had a constant
19flow of Jews who survived fleeting from Poland to Germany
20so you always have a moving target.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They flowed westward as well, did they?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     After the war they fled westward. Most of the immigration
23to Palestine came in fact via Germany. Jews returning
24from hiding who came back to Polish towns felt very
25insecure in the atmosphere, where it was feared they would
26be reclaiming their property and this kind of thing, and

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 1so they moved out of Poland very quickly.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So population lost figures are not necessarily a very
 3reliable means to an accurate answer?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We get an approximate figure by subtracting the postwar
 5from the prewar to get an approximate number of Polish
 6casualties. So we generally say out of 3.3 million
 7probably 3 million were murdered and 300,000 survived, but
 8those are rough figures.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am only asking for what you Americans call ball
10park figures.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are they worth anything, these ball park
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I think those are accurate as ball park figures, but
14they could easily be off 100 thousand on either side,
15I would think.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Where the ball park figures are very uncertain is for the
18Soviet Union.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I am afraid I shall need some help from people in
20court. This has to do with three different things that
21arose during your cross-examination, Professor. The first
22thing is to go back, if you will, to 19A in the Browning
23document section of file L1, which is tab 7. Please could
24somebody find the Professor file H1(vii) please? That
25file hunting can stop now because Miss Rogers has done the
26trick with a little file of documents which can go into

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 1this section. I would like to start with the Muller
 2message of 1st August 1941, the first sentence of which
 3says something like this, does it not, Professor: Running
 4reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East are
 5to be placed, or will be placed, before the Fuhrer from
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am sorry about my translation. That is roughly
 9what it says, is it not? Then can you have a look,
10please, at what I think is probably the first of the
11documents in that little clip, which is the situation
12report number 80 dated 11th September 1941?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In English?
14 MR RAMPTON:     This is an English translation. The German is
15there too and I shall need to ask you about that in a
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am unhappy about this introduction of
18documents in this way when I have no chance to re-examine
19on them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will be offered the opportunity to follow
21up any new points, but this is entirely legitimate
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because it arises in relation to a topic that
25you have cross-examined on.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Indeed. It arises, if I may say so, in relation

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 1to three topics. It arises in relation to what
 2information Hitler was being given, about which the
 3Professor was cross-examined. It arises in relation to
 4the disappearing Jews that ran across the Urals, which we
 5had yesterday, and it arises in relation to the
 6translation given by Mr Irving for Hitler's table talk on
 725th October 1941, where he translates the word
 8"Schrecken" as "rumour", if I have the right German, but
 9anyhow he gives "public rumour" as the translation. So
10all three of those points arise from these documents.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Can I ask to you look at report number 80 in
13English, September 11th 1941. Have you got that one?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. The second paragraph read as follows. I ask you to
16note the words carefully. "The rumour that the Germans
17shoot to kill all the Jews has advantages. This is
18probably the reason why all the time the EK's encounter
19fewer Jews. Thus it should be noted that everywhere more
20than 70 to 90 per cent of the original local Jews have
21fled. In contrast to the past this concerns not only
22those Jews who once held influential positions". This
23comes I think from Einsatzgruppen C, which had which area
24under its jurisdiction?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Ukraine.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, just in passing, please note the other side of the

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 1page, which has a 129 at the bottom, "Notwithstanding that
 2those people had, as it were, done a bunk, we still find
 3something like 30,000 Jews shot by the 11th September
 41941". Do you see that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, at the bottom.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have done the arithmetic for you.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Kommandant, he mentions already 23,600, then
 8Sonderkommando A had reached a figure of 7,000 so the
 9cumulative is 30,000.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     31,000, something like that, and notwithstanding that some
11had been able, most had been able, to get away, they still
12found 23,600 which they managed to shoot in three
13days yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I would like you to look at the German of that
15document, if you will, and the relevant passage, if you
16have this thing, this one is marked Geheim Reichssacher.
17It looks like a 60 on the front but it is not in fact, it
18is an 80, and you can see the date 11th September 1941 on
19the top right hand corner. Have you got that one?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to page 9, please, and look at the last
22paragraph on the page?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It reads: (German - document not provided) Please
25translate that for me.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     

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