Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 214

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    This is a carbon, so they would have had on the original
 1the two they typed in.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got page 91?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think it is the 26th, 26th March 1942.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a letter, I think, from somebody called Rauf.
 5What is this about?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Rauf is the head of the sort of, I guess we could call it
 7the administration of material matters of the
 8Reichssicherheitshauptamt. Included in that is the motor
 9pool, and this I would have to read through to see
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Something about Sonderwagon.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is about the Sonderwagon that are prepared by
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. It is about the supply of Sonderwagon?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What are Sonderwagon?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is one of terms they used for gas vans.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I notice again in a box at the top of the first page the
19word Geheim only, please. Then, last but one, page 99A,
20this I hope is a letter or a copy of a letter, I think it
21is a Nuremberg document in fact, from Gantzen Muller to
22Karl Wolff?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This, I think there is no dispute about this, announces
25the starting of the journeys of 5,000 Jews a day from
26Warsaw to Treblinka and twice a week of 5,000 Jews from an

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 1unpronounceable Polish word.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Schemeshall.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To Belzec, is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And again the appellation or classification is, is it not,
 6on the front page, Geheim?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is Geheim.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A mere Geheim for that one. Just by way of contrast, we
 9can look at Wolff's reply, which is 99C, 13th August
101942,. This is not a Nuremberg document. This looks like
11a copy of an original, does it not? Have you got 99C?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. We have the initials on this, but it is not clear.
13I am not sure whether this is in the files of the person
14who received it, or the person who sent it I assume this
15is in fact in Wolff's file because that is I think where
16these documents come from.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It may be. The only thing we can see about this is that
18there is no Geheim, still less a Geheimerreichssacher .
19The only thing you can see in the box at the top of the
20page is a Gothic AR. Do you see that?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does this series of documents that we have looked at,
23and I can tell you in the file there are lots of other
24fairly sinister documents which have no security
25classification at all, what does that tell you about the
26classification Geheim as used on documents of this kind?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That there are many documents referring to the workings of
 2the Final Solution and deportation and killing that do not
 3have a high secrecy rating.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally -- I know this has been laborious -- what is
 5your reaction then to the suggestion that the
 6classification, a mere classification of Geheim, on the
 7Muller order or message to the Einsatzgruppen? It is
 8suggested it is not a document of any importance.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would not be a persuasive document.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, this will be slightly disorderly, not in any sense a
11criticism of Mr Irving, simply because I track his
12cross-examination in my questions to you. Are you
13familiar, I am talking now about numbers, with something
14called the Korherr report of 23rd March 1943?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So as to save us all getting it out, it is noted in some
17detail in Mr Irving's book Hitler's War, in the 1977
18edition, at pages 503 to 4. The numbers it apparently
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord we have not raised Korherr report in the
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but there was an issue about numbers.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It has to do with the cross-examination about
24numbers, scale.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it casts light on that issue, it does not
26matter whether it has been referred to or whether it has

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     It has to do with numbers in the East. I can give
 3you the numbers. Numbers given for people subjected to
 4Sonderbehandlung before it was edited.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you, Mr Rampton, very quickly remind me
 6who Korherr is?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     He was Himmler's statistician. Is that right?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had forgotten that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     He is Dr Rickard Korherr, he is an anorak and he
11crunches numbers for Himmler. Anyhow, the numbers he
12gave, if you remember, I will read them out, are for
13people deported from the eastern provinces subjected to
14Sonderbehandlung 1,274,166; for people in the Warthegau,
15and this is at the 23rd March 1943, 145,301, making a
16grand total of 1,419,467. Now, as at that date, 23rd
17March 1943, do those numbers seem surprising to you?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. If anything, I would have thought they would have
19been slightly higher, because at that point in these
20regions the first sweep through the ghettoes has already
21taken place, so this is a very cautious estimate.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By this date, speaking from your general knowledge of the
23subject and your detailed knowledge, end of March 43,
24roughly speaking, how many people do you think have been
25Sonderbehandelt in the three Reinhardt camps? Roughly.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Roughly. I would say that would be the lower estimate and

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 1it might be 100 or 200,000 higher. Basically, the
 2question is how many Polish Jews do we still know are in
 3other places and they are in the work camps in Lublin,
 4there is still 50 to 60,000 in the Warsaw ghetto. They
 5have not liquidated the remnant ghettoes. So, when they
 6made the first sweep, they would take between 70, 80, 90
 7per cent and there would be remaining then in the ghettoes
 8a smaller group that would be left for work. Then the
 9sweep through those ghettoes came in 43. So most of the
10Polish Jewry has been destroyed but there is still a
11segment that has not.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I was going to ask you that as my final question on this
13part of numbers. We saw that Hans Frank estimated between
142 and a half and 3 and a half million Jews or people with
15Jewish connections on 16th September 1941.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it known how many Jews were left in Poland by the end
18of the war?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     First, I should say those who have looked at real
20statistics and not Frank talking off the top of his head
21would not accept the 2.5 to 3.5 in the
22Generalgouvernment. I should say in Poland the pre 1941,
23that is the German share of Generalgouvernment and to the
24West, I believe German demographers who made reports
25thought it was close to 2 million Polish Jews who were
26there. Galicia has another 500,000. Bialystok I believe

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