Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 214

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    We will obviously have to deal with the
 1scale at Auschwitz. You have heard the answer that
 2Professor Browning has given to me. It is a matter for
 3you whether you want to pursue it. I appreciate you do
 4not accept it.
 5 MR IRVING:     I can only ask the supplementary question, which is
 6does that answer depend entirely on eyewitness evidence,
 7or is there any documentary basis whatsoever for what you
 8have just told his Lordship?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have documentary evidence for gassing in Semlin and
10Chelmno and the uses of the gas van. We have only
11eyewitness testimony for the existence of gas chambers in
12the three Operation Reinhardt camps.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is no documentary evidence relating to scale
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not to scale, to mode of killing. What we do have is
16documentary evidence concerning the emptying of Poland of
17Jews to these three camps, which are teeny little villages
18which do not accommodate one and a half million people.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have been through part of that argument sometime ago
20when I mentioned the English village of Aldershot, to
21which large numbers of English people went during World
22War II.
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If the population of Aldershot had been a group of people
24already deprived of their rights and property, if they had
25been rounded up with all of the brutality that left bodies
26lying all the way to the train station, and if they had

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 1been sent there and never came back, and if a hundred
 2witnesses from Aldershot said they had been gassed, we
 3would, I think, say something happened at Aldershot.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely right. We do not have 100 witnesses in these
 5cases, do we? We have apparently, in the case of
 6Auschwitz, about which Mr Rampton is concerned, tens of
 7thousands of survivors, but only five or six have been
 8questioned on this matter so far as we know from these
 9proceedings before us. Anyway, I have no further
10questions. Thank you very much for coming to England,
11Professor Browning.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
13 < Re-examined by Mr Rampton QC.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, if I ran maybe past quarter past 4
15perhaps I would be forgiven?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had thought already that, if needs be, we
17will do that.
18 MR RAMPTON:     We would like to get the Professor off the stand.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that would suit Mr Irving actually,
20and then he will have a free run tomorrow, preparing
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I do not have that many questions,
23Professor, but it may take a bit of time because I want
24your help with some documents. Can we start, please, with
25what I call the Browning document file, which is tab 7 of
26L1? I would like you to turn to page 19A. This is a

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 1document which by now we all probably can recite in our
 2sleep. There was a lot of cross-examination about it. It
 3is the message from Muller to the Einsatzgruppen of 1st
 4August 1941, I hope, is it?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     19A in a circle. There are about four numbers on
 7the page. You are looking for a handwritten number in a
 8circle in the bottom right hand corner of the page.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, 19A I have.
10 MR RAMPTON:     First of all, can I ask you whether you know how
11long this document has been accessible to scholars?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think the first reference I saw to it was in Gerald
13Fleming, a book published in 1982.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that "Hitler und die Entlosung"?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Second question. I am coming back to the content of it in
17a moment. You see it has the security mark Geheim on it?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I see Geheim.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want you just to have a quick look at some of the other
20documents in this bundle, not for the content but for
21their superscription, if I can call it that. For the
22moment, I have lost my note. Can we turn, please, to page
2338? You will remember the context of these questions. It
24was that Mr Irving was suggesting that Geheim was such a
25low security classification that this document could not
26have a sinister connotation.

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 38 ought to be what I call the Rademacher report,
 3following his visit to Belgrade. Is it?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you tell me, just glancing at the first page, you know
 6it backwards, what is the substance of this document, the
 7first page of it?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is reporting here on the shooting of the male Jews in
 9Serbia. He had been sent down there to deal with what was
10to happen to them and he says there really is not a
11problem concerning the male Jews, they are being shot.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are being shot. He is an official in the Foreign
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is the so-called Jewish expert in the Foreign Office.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you see that has the mere marking Geheim at the top of
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Then can we go to what I think is 40A? It is
1925th October 41. I am going to ask you to do a bit of
20stationery work, if you do not mind, Professor. Just put
21this in the file. There is one for the witness and one
22for the judge (Same handed).
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One for Mr Irving?
24 MR RAMPTON:     One for Mr Irving, yes. This is another of your
25documents, Professor. I say "your documents", documents
26referred to by you. 25th October 1941, from a Dr Wetzler

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 1to somebody called Lohse, who is the Reichs Kommissar for
 2the East land. What is this document about?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the one in which he discusses the possibility of
 4sending someone to Riga to construct gassing apparatuses.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is in the fourth line on the first page Vergassungs
 6apparate. Then, if you turn over the page, can you just
 7tell us what the first sentence of the first complete
 8paragraph says?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He says that, given the situation, there are no objections
10if Jews not capable of work are removed by Brock's "little
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     His Vergassungsapparate?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Notice then please on the first page the appellation, the
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The security rank is Geheim.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Then, finally, three other documents. Page 91 is a
18document dated 26th March, the year I do not know. 42,
19I guess, is it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to be very pedantic and say
21Wetzler document, 40A, or otherwise we will never find it.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, my Lord?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     40A for Wetzler.
24 MR RAMPTON:     To Lohse?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is a carbon, so they would have had on the original
26stationery the 194 and the blank paper behind just recalls

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