Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 214

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    I believe it was intended as a kind of authorization for a
 1question of"----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of what?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --"the fate of the Jews in the rest of Europe". It does
 4not say killing, it says a total, you know, examine the
 5possibility of a total solution for the Jews in Europe.
 6Deal with, the second sentence, I believe, is to deal with
 7the agencies whose jurisdiction is affected. The third is
 8to bring back a plan for a Final Solution, both
 9"gesamtlosung" and "endlosung", and my interpretation is
10this is not an order, this is an authorization for
11Heydrich to look into the possibilities of what will they
12do with the rest of the Jews of Europe?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can it be taken just as an extension of the powers
14conferred on Heydrich in January 1939?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My feeling is no, that the very fact they needed a new
16authorization means that we are no longer talking about
17immigration but a new kind of solution that is no longer
18immigration is what is envisaged, otherwise he would not
19need a new authorization.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask to go to page 44 in your expert report, please?
21This is another criticism, I am afraid, of your
22methodology.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page what?
24 MR IRVING:     44 of the Professor's expert report. Two lines
25from the bottom you say: "... unloading the train cars
26some 2,000 Jews were found dead in the train"?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the figure you quote?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have made the translation yourself?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to the footnote 113 on the
 7following page, 45?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In which you state, no doubt correctly: "A more legible,
10retyped copy of this document contains the figure 200
11rather than 2,000"?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why did you use the larger figure rather than the smaller
14figure?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Because it was the original document. The other one says
16"Abschrift" and I use the original rather than copy if
17I have both of them.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why do you, therefore, state that a more legible retyped
19copy contains the figure 200 rather than 2,000?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was the figure illegible in the original?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The original is clearly 2,000. It is just a hard document
22to read because the photostat quality is less. The
23retyped copy is a clear one to read but in neither ----
24 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship has it.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- is there any doubt about ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do I? Well, we can actually look at it for

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 1ourselves.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Everybody should look at it. It is page 103
 3to -- it is the Westerman report, I think, of 14th
 4September 1942 -- 105 of L1.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And this is the original, not the Abschrift?
 6Whereabouts?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That I cannot -- your Lordship will need the
 8Professor's report. I can barely read the wretched thing.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it is not legible?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, the report itself is very difficult to read in this
11edition and in terms of whether it is, you know, what the
12number is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think I have found it in it. I think
14it says 1,000. It is the third paragraph on page 105. It
15looks to me like 1,000 Juden.
16 MR IRVING:     How many spaces does it have? Is it enough spaces
17for ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has plenty of spaces to be 1,000.
19 MR IRVING:     Four digits then?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, four digits.
21 MR IRVING:     In that case I will accept that 2,000 is probably
22correct.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can have a look at it, if you want to,
24Mr Irving. I may have the wrong bit.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It will come near the end.
26 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think it is the wrong paragraph. I am

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 1sorry. I think it is the last paragraph up from the
 2bottom of the last page and I think it is the third line
 3and I can read it very clearly. 5,000 "Juden tot" -- it
 4is five words in from the right-hand margin is the word
 5"tot" and 2,000.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     How did that figure of 2,000 dead on a transport of
 8that size compare with the average for journeys like
 9this? Was the average, am I right in saying, about 20 to
1025 per cent?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is an extraordinarily high one, but when one looks at
12the surrounding documents of the Westerman report, one
13realizes what had happened, that they -- in these previous
14reports that they had march people from surrounding towns
15in August, and a very hot August, for three or four days,
16left them in a collection centre for several days -- these
17people had not eaten or drunk for nearly a week -- were
18then crammed into cars in which they had not nearly enough
19room. So instead of the usual 100 to 120, they were
20packed in even further, so that you have in a hot summer
21in suffocating conditions packed totally full of people
22who have not eaten or drunk for a long time, being shipped
23in which the guards say they fired off all of their
24ammunition into the cars. This is not a normal transport
25and, thus, I concluded that the 2,000 number is not, in
26fact, unrealistic, given what we know about the nature of

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 1this transport, that it was not a normal transport.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which would have happened to the 2,000 bodies when they
 3arrived at Belzec?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They would have been a logistical problem. You would have
 5had -- they do not walk out of the trains, so you have to
 6get people to carry them from the ramp to the pits.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there they would have been buried or cremated or
 8disposed of?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At this stage they would have been buried. They were not
10cremating yet at Belzec.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And lots of people would have seen this going on,
12presumably?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The people inside the camp. The train cars were brought
14into the camp in the ramp ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     There would have been lots of eyewitnesses, in other
16words, of 2,000 bodies been buried in Belzec?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, they were burying much more than that, in my opinion
18because ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking about these 2,000.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They would have seen these 2,000 being ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that would have remained in the memories of very many
22of these eyewitnesses?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the railway line runs into the camp,
24does it? There is a spur?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The main line runs through and then I believe they pulled
26off on a ramp which, in effect, is fenced in, a siding, so

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