Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition
Pages 86 - 90 of 176
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1 MR RAMPTON: There is a file.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has Mr Irving got the clip that you are
4 MR IRVING: I have footnote 6 here which is the printed version
6 MR RAMPTON: We have taken the original out of Dr Longerich
7documents and put it in here. It is 19A in this file at
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it.
10 MR RAMPTON: --- 19A.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, have you got this? It is probably
12quite useful to use this.
13 MR IRVING: I am looking to see how original it is. I have
14sent a fax to Germany last night to ask for the original
15facsimile, but I do not think they are going to co-operate
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is as good as we have got at the
18moment. It is Abschrift but we have not got anything
19else, have we?.
20 MR RAMPTON: The printed one is 19, my Lord.
21 MR IRVING: This is a pretty important document. We have all
22agreed in this courtroom, I think. This is August 1st
231941, Muller to the Einsatzgruppen?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] A, B, C and D. (To the witness): Can you translate the
1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Concerning or subject?
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Just translate that line, please.
3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] "The procuring of visual materials".
4 Q. [Mr Irving] "The procuring of visual materials". I will translate the
5rest of the paragraph and interrupt me if you
6disagree. "The Fuhrer is to be provided with or to be,
7there are to be submitted to the Fuhrer from here on a
8current basis reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in
9the East. For this purpose, particularly interesting
10visual materials like photographs, placards, leaflets and
11other documents are needed. In so far as such material
12falls into your hands or can be obtained, I ask it to be
13transferred to here as rapidly as possible."
14 Would you read that as referring specifically to
15the killing operations of the Einsatzgruppen?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I would say the first sentence refers to the current
17reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen, and I think the
18likeliest, most plausible, interpretation is that is
19referring to the Einsatzgruppen reports, and then for the
20purpose, in a sense, of adding something to that, it would
21be especially interesting to get visual material.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of people being shot?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Nothing -- pardon?
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Of people being shot?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No. No, it says ----
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Then what?
1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] It says want photos, placards.
2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Of what though?
3 MR IRVING: Other documents?
4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes, they want documents, they want leaflets, they want
5placards. They do not say pictures of what, pictures
6relating to what the Einsatzgruppen are doing, presumably,
7or captured Soviet pictures. We do not know.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] But the reference of this document, the subject matter, is
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] But "in connection", that is for the purpose of keeping of
11the regular reports going to the Fuhrer, they would like
12-- in a sense, it implies already there is an ongoing
13process of the Fuhrer receiving reports and now they want,
14to sweeten that, they want visual aids to be added. My
15feeling is this implies a process already underway to
16which they now wish to add visual materials as well.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the first time it says ----
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] It does not say, "You shall begin to send reports to the
19Fuhrer". It says, "The Fuhrer is", you know ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving] "Von hier", though, does that not rather suggest it is
21something that is starting up afresh?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Well, from Berlin, it says the "Fuhrer von hier" which
23means, of course, Berlin.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] It means "physical place". I thought it meant "from here
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No, it is not "from here on". It is "out from here",
1meaning Heydrich's office in Berlin.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am with you, I follow.
3 MR IRVING: My contention is (and correct me if I am wrong)
4that earlier today we established that the Einsatzgruppen
5had several tasks of which killing was one, as indicated
6in their reports?
7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] One paragraph was the killing and the other paragraphs
9were the other tasks that they were involved in. Other
10tasks included the collection of intelligence documents
11and any material like that?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] And if this message from Muller to the Einsatzgruppen
14commanders, A, B, C and D, simply says, "Concerning visual
15materials, the Fuhrer is interested in the tasks of the
16Einsatzgruppen, he wants to be kept up-to-date on them.
17Please supply him with pictures, photographs, captured
18documents and the rest", am I not right in suggesting that
19this is not referring solely to the killing or possibly
20even to the killing at all?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] It is referring to the work of the Ensatzgruppen and,
22therefore, it does not exclude the killing, but it does
23not imply the killing is the only thing that is being
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] But, basically, it is inclusive if it says the work of the
1Einsatzgruppen and, therefore, killing would be among the
2things that would be reported on a regular basis to him.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, we have another clue, Professor. There is a lot of
4documents in this bundle, and I am not going to ask you to
5look through them all, but would you like to hazard a
6guess on the basis of your expert knowledge at the
7security classification of all the documents connected
8with the Aktion Reinhardt or with the extermination
9programmes? Would they be Verteilisch (Confidential) or
10Geheim (Secret) or Geheim Rasara(?) (Top State Secret)?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I think some are Geheim -- are GOS, but there are, they
12vary and I think there are documents that do not have
13classification as well.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you look at the classification on this document and
15tell us what classification it is?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] "Geheim".
17 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, a very modest security rating?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Not a security rating you would associate with a document
20concerned with the Final Solution?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Well, given that the contents going out, that there is
22nothing in here that stipulates, as you say, "Give us the
23reports and the photos of killings", there is nothing in
24the document that would require, as far as I can see, even
26 Q. [Mr Irving]
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