Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 176

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    In terms of Operation Reinhardt, we have no
 1those too?"
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I am familiar with that document. Can you suggest
 3any logical reason why they would have destroyed one
 4category of documents but not the others? After all, they
 5were in the killing business, you tell us, and Jews are
 6the victims, so why should they have been more methodical
 7in their destruction of the gassing documents than the
 8shooting documents?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think they probably produced many fewer documents
10relating to the three camps that were centralised under
11Globocnik in Lublin, while the shooting we have in a sense
12both the reports that go back to Berlin and things like
13the Brest-litovsk document, individual police reports that
14have survived in pockets, but certainly nothing
15comprehensive like the Einsatzgruppen reports.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, I am not sure you have
17quite answered Mr Irving's question.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     So that more shooting documents will survive because
19shooting took place in a decentralized way, and so you
20will have pockets of documents that survive in this area
21or that area. But given that the Operation Reinhardt
22activities were centralized, there would not be local
23documents about them at this police station or that police
24station, some of which would have slipped through and not
25been destroyed. So I think you have a much more
26centralised document base which was then systematically

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 1destroyed and you do not have as many strays that managed
 2to survive by inadvertence.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am not sure that it is helpful that you refer to
 4Operation Reinhardt, or perhaps you ought to define what
 5you mean by Operation Reinhardt at this stage?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would take Globocnik's own definition which was that it
 7was the camps, the deportation from the gettoes to the
 8camps and the collection and use of the materials
 9collected and the use of Jewish labour. I believe there
10those are four functions, if my memory serves me right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, of course, there is a function that you have not
12mentioned, in other words, the killing was not specified
13as a function of Operation Reinhardt.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, he talks about the camps, and it is my opinion, as
15you clearly know, that those camps were created to kill
16Jews.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but these camps were operating on a loose rain, shall
18we say? They did not need the paperwork?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think -- I do not know but I do not suspect once
20that they were a routine and they were stationery, unlike
21the police that are reporting back, "We are going from
22here to here" and have multiple duties of which they
23report about. Here they have one primary function. They
24were not moving. You do not report every day, "We are
25still in Sobibor. We have not moved to somewhere else".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you are familiar with the fact that the

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 1concentration camp commandants made regular reports back
 2to Berlin?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But Operation Reinhardt is not under the concentration
 4camp system in Berlin and the economic administrative
 5office. They are under Globocnik and are not part of that
 6chain of command and report.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Whom did Globocnik come under?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Globocnik technically comes under Kruger who -- Globocnik
 9is the SS and police leader for Lublin. He is under
10Kruger who is the higher SS and police leader for the
11general government ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is Friedrich Wilhelm Kruger?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and higher SS and police leaders were appointed
14personally by Himmler, sent out as his emissaries. In
15this case we know ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     In parallel to Hans Frank. Hans Frank had a lot of
17friction with Kruger?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I mean, Hans Frank is not within the SS or under
19Himmler. He is appointed by Hitler as the Colonial
20Governor of the General Government.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there are two parallel systems operating here; there
22is the SS police system and there is the colonial
23government of Hans Frank?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a civil administration and an SS police
25structure, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened after Kruger was killed in, what, February

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 11943 or whenever?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I did not believe he was killed. I thought he was
 3replaced.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was replaced?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not recollect his fate but I certainly ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who replaced him?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would have to look at that. I do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this killing system, or this camp system, in other
 9words, came under Globocnik, who came Kruger, who came
10under Himmler direct.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but we do know that Globocnik often was in direct
12contact with Himmler and got special tasks from Himmler.
13So it may well have been that there is only a link from
14Globocnik directly to Himmler. Kruger may know what is
15going on, but may not be getting -- this is speculation on
16my part because we do not have any of that kind of
17communication.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. What was Globocnik's fate during the war? Did he
19fall into disfavour?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He had been, earlier before the war, the Gauleichter in
21Vienna, I believe, had been caught up in the financial
22scandal. He was then used by Himmler in Lublin until the
23fall of '43. After this was done, he, like many of the
24others, were sent to fight partisans in Yugoslavia and he
25is replaced.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But was he not replaced as part of a financial

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 1scandal?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not believe that we have definitive evidence on
 3that at all.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     To what extent did the loot play an important part in the
 5considerations of the SS, if I can put it like that, their
 6decision to kill thousands, hundreds of thousands, of
 7Jews, that they were eager to get their hands on their
 8property?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not believe that is a major factor at all, but it is
10a concern to get the loot as a by-product of the killing,
11you will -- that is, I believe they got to the loot
12because they had killed the Jews. They did not kill the
13Jews in order to get to the loot.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I go back to a question asked by
15Mr Irving earlier on and ask it in a slightly different
16form? If Berlin was interested in getting reports of the
17shootings, the numbers of the various categories killed,
18why (and I think this is really the thrust of his
19question) should they not have been interested in similar
20statistics in relation to gassing at the various camps?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot give you an exact answer to that because it is
22not discussed in the documentation. Heydrich is the one
23that gets the reports from the police units. Himmler is
24the one that is getting reports from Globocnik. It may
25only be they had different ways of operation. I cannot
26say exactly an answer to your question because I

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