Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 176

<< 1-5176 >>

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- as a result of their being cross-examined
 2by you.
 3 MR IRVING:     --- the testimony of the Commandant of Auschwitz,
 4Rudolf Hoess, was hardly tested, I believe -- and
 5Mr Rampton?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we have had enough on Rudolf Hoess to
 7make him part of the Defence of Justification. He is --
 8you have been cross-examined about this -- one of the camp
 9officials, or the camp official, on whom the Defendants
10place really most reliance, I think it is fair to say.
11 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, the position at Auschwitz is quite
12different from the rest of the case. Van Pelt contains
13the evidence that a responsible historian would have
14looked at as a minimum. Mr Irving has made it perfectly
15clear that until this case came along he has never looked
16at it. It is the convergence of all the evidence in van
17Pelt that makes the case that Mr Irving should have known
18about before he jumped on the Leuchter bandwagon. So the
19whole of that is before your Lordship. Evans is quite
20different. If I do not cross-examine on parts of Evans,
21your Lordship can probably assume that I do not pursue
22them, but not so with van Pelt.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that in a way that is a correction of
24what I have just said. I think you will find that already
25reflected on the transcript is the proposition that the
26Defendants do not have to go through each individual

.   P-26

 1eyewitness, for example, or each individual document
 2relating to the construction of Auschwitz, although we
 3have had quite a lot of it, because they say that is the
 4totality of the evidence you ought to have looked at.
 5     The distinction Mr Rampton draws is between
 6that, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, criticisms
 7of you for perverting the historical record, mostly in
 8'Hitler's War', which they are only entitled to rely on
 9if they put it to you fair and square in
10cross-examination, and that is a fair correction ----
11 MR IRVING:     I am startled by this distinction between the two
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it relates really to the nature of the
14criticism that is made. In relation to perversion of the
15historical record, a positive case is made against you,
16you have deliberately done this, you have deliberately
17manipulated the data, and Mr Rampton has put that, he has
18not put the whole of Evans' report, but he has put a lot
19of it. So that is the kind criticism made there.
20     But in relation to Auschwitz, as I understand
21it, it is really a rather different criticism. It is that
22you have taken a perverse view which ignores and flies in
23the face of the totality of evidence that there was
24gassing at Auschwitz. So do you follow why it is a
25different kind of case?
26 MR IRVING:     I appreciate what Mr Rampton and your Lordship are

.   P-27

 1trying to say, but your Lordship will remember quite
 2clearly that on more than one occasion I asked the
 3witness, "Are these the eyewitnesses that you are relying
 4on? Are there any more?" We had dealt, I think, by that
 5time with five and he quite clearly said, no, there are no
 6more that he was relying on at that point.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not quite.
 8 MR IRVING:     And I think it is perverse now for Mr Rampton to
 9say, yes, but what about Hoess or what about Aumeier or
10what about the others who are in the written report, but
11who the witness was inviting me not to cross-examine him
12on, shall I put it that way?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, I hope, I accurately reflect
14Professor van Pelt's evidence when I say this, that in
15relation to inmates' eyewitness evidence, he was inclined
16to rely only on the very early reports, because he
17accepted the possibility of cross-pollination and
18contamination, or whatever you would like to call it, with
19the later ones. But in relation to camp officials, I do
20not think he ever said that he was discarding any of them,
21as it were, as some support for the proposition that there
22was gassing there. That is my broad recollection of his
24 MR IRVING:     Well, in my closing speech I may have to remind
25your Lordship of the actual words. Your Lordship will
26probably remember that I also said to him, "How many

.   P-28

 1survivors were there?" and we came to several thousand.
 2I said, "Why have you always then picked on just those
 3five? Why haven't you ever questioned any of the other
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a point you are perfectly entitled to
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that is all I wish now to...
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a bad thing to have those points
 9ventilated. Now I think it is Professor Browning?
10 MR RAMPTON:     He is here, my Lord. Yes.
12< Examined by MR RAMPTON QC.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Browning, what are your full names?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Christopher Robert Browning.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you made an expert witness report for the purposes of
16this case?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you have it with you?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have my own report. I do not have the pagination of the
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We must make ----
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The reformatting of it.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- sure you have the same version as we do. I ask you
24only this, in so far as that report contains statements of
25fact, are you satisfied so far as you can be that they are

.   P-29

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are some things that I have become aware since the
 2report that I would have added if I had known of them as
 3of mid July 1999, but it only affirms what I have already
 4written, except it changes some dates but, in general,
 5I would say, yes, that the report still stands.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In so far as it contains expressions of opinion, are you
 7satisfied in your own mind that those opinions are fair?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you please remain there to be cross-examined by
10Mr Irving?
11 < Cross-Examined by MR IRVING.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving?
13 MR IRVING:     Good morning, Professor Browning.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Good morning.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say you have made a number of fresh determinations on
16dates and things recently, since July 1999, that you would
17have written certain dates differently?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, particularly the dates as to when certain special of
19Operation Reinhardt appeared.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which spellings?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say now that we have not two but three different
22spellings, one with a T, one with a DT and one with a D,
23and that those all appear as of 1942 when earlier the
24first DT spelling I had found had been of 1943.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the significance of 1942, in your opinion?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     

.   P-30

<< 1-5176 >>