Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 176

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. They do not have the last word, though,
 2do they?
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I now turn to the question of these very
 4witnesses, once again the non-appearing experts, the
 5witnesses whom we are informed on Thursday would not now
 6be being called. Once again, I am asking for your
 7Lordship's tutelage as to in what manner I can address the
 8matters that they have raised in their expert reports,
 9using the abundance of material that we have developed.
10These witnesses have in some part relied on witness
11statements put in lower down the hierarchy, so to speak,
12which I also impugn. There is one famous case of one of
13the witnesses who accused me of having the skin heads at
14one of my meetings, who himself turned out to police
15records as a skinhead gang leader. There is no way that
16I can put that kind of material before your Lordship
17because these witnesses are not now going to be called.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the way I would suggest, I am not
19saying this would necessarily, as it were, work but these
20are things you would have wanted to put to Eatwell and
21Levin, I suppose?
22 MR IRVING:     Eatwell and Levin, for example, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You probably can put -- I do not know what
24you are talking about -- some of the things you were going
25to put to them to one of the other experts.
26 MR IRVING:     That is what I hope to do, but your Lordship will

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 1appreciate it is going to be difficult, for example, now
 2that we know that the Russian witnesses are not going to
 3be coming, we had an abundance of questions that I
 4intended to put to them, for example, about the legality
 5or the legitimacy of their holdings of these papers under
 6The Hague rules, materials like that, and the conditions
 7which rule in the Russian archives, how accessible they
 8are to other historians, things that would have assisted
 9your Lordship in forming an opinion and I am just ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can give that evidence yourself. You
11have been there.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes. Well, some of that evidence, yes, my Lord,
13but it is difficult because I have the last word in this
14case, my closing speech, it would be improper, indeed
15unfair, for me to adduce or lead that kind of evidence in
16a closing speech without having tested it in any way.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, no, you could not do it in your -- you
18would have to give evidence, as it were, from the witness
19box first. Try putting the material to whichever you
20think is the most appropriate expert who is being called.
21Mr Rampton has been, I think, fairly liberal in the sense
22he has not objected when he might otherwise have done
23because this is such a curious case, it is all experts.
24So try to do it that way. I think you will find that you
25will get your point over.
26 MR IRVING:     This is a little bit of red flag waving so that

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 1your Lordship understands why sometimes I am putting
 2material to witnesses when you think to yourself, "Well,
 3this is not covered by this witness's statement".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You have put things to Sir John Keegan
 5which you would not in an ordinary case have had the right
 6to put to him, but nobody objected and the points got
 7other to me.
 8 MR IRVING:     I am indebted.
 9     The third point, my Lord, concerns the snatch of
10remarks by me from the Errol Morris film which your
11Lordship may remember, the film 'Mr Death'. It was put to
12your Lordship as a transcript of fragments of remarks by
13me on the question of what generates anti-Semitism, where
14does anti-Semitism come from?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this the National Alliance?
16 MR IRVING:     No, it was the other little thing that they put in
17afterwards. I think Miss Rogers is probably looking for
18it. It was, I think, highly prejudicial. There is one
19sentence in there which actually reads, "I am a racist"
20and taken, of course, out of context that sentence can be
21flung at me around the world and, no doubt, will be.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well...
23 MR IRVING:     What I am asking your Lordship is that I should
24either see the film or have a much longer transcript of
25those remarks in ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That sounds to me entirely fair.

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 1 MR IRVING:     --- continuous form because the problem was in that
 2particular fragment of conversation, Errol Morris, the
 3producer, asked me to role play, so to speak. "Imagine
 4yourself in that position and state what your motives
 5would be".
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, I have already said whenever you feel
 7that the context puts a different spin on the part that
 8the Defendants are relying on, you are perfectly entitled
 9to draw my attention to the context.
10 MR IRVING:     It was not actually a piece used in the film. It
11was a piece that they picked up, the Defendants picked up,
12off the cutting room floor, so to speak, and then
13wiped off and produced for your Lordship's delectation.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot at the moment claim to remember
15which bit it is.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I will tell your Lordship where to find it. It
17has been in the files since goodness knows. It was a late
18arrival in the sense that it was not in the original
19file. It is at tab 9 of the bundle K4, and a complete
20transcript of the whole untransmitted or pretransmission
21interview is in that tab transcribed by the court
22transcribers. Mr Irving has had the tape as well.
23 MR IRVING:     Do we not have the film of it?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the film going to add which is not in
25the transcript, Mr Irving?
26 MR IRVING:     Unfortunately, this tape is, I believe I am right

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 1in saying, very fragmentary. It jumps and stops and
 2starts in the way that things do that are taken off a
 3cutting room floor.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it looks to me like a complete
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I am told it is a complete transcript.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There we are. You have it there. You can
 8ask the Defendants if they will provide you with the tape
 9or you can read it into the transcript, Mr Irving, but
10I do not think I can do anything about it, can I?
11 MR IRVING:     Reverting to the witness statement of Professor van
12Pelt, my Lord, again a general question: we covered parts
13of that in the cross-examination and I think your Lordship
14welcomed the fact that I did not intend to go through it
15paragraph by paragraph. How much attention is your
16Lordship going to pay to the paragraphs that we did not
17test under cross-examination?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am a little troubled by this, but the way
19I think it is right to deal with the parts that you were
20not cross-examined on, that is to say, those parts of
21Professor van Pelt's expert report which did not form any
22part of Mr Rampton's cross-examination of you, I am
23treating as not being part of the Defence of
24Justification, unless and until they crop up in the
25evidence of other witnesses ----
26 MR IRVING:     For example ----

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