Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 176

<< 1-5176 >>
    I am going to ask you to go back to page 14 now,
 1swamps, is that a familiar kind of phrase at this time?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen it in three documents. This is the first one
 3and then there is the Hitler table talk, and then there is
 4the citation by Jackelm saying that Himmler used the
 5phrase with him after the early December meetings. So
 6I have come across that phrase now three times in this
 7stretch of five or six months.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it just a turn of phrase or do they mean it literally,
 9do you think?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I think the indication here ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it a dangerous turn of phrase?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is used in ways I think that have a very, to use your
13term, a lethal connotation, that it seems to have become
14one of the slang words for making sure that Jews die. In
15the first one we see clearly by the response that driving
16Jews in the swamps meant that they were supposed to drown,
17because the man replies back: "Driving women and children
18into the swamps did not have the intended success because
19the swamps were not so deep that a sinking under could
20occur". So at least to the recipient it was clear that
21driving Jews into the swamps was a way in which they would
22perish.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the Magill document?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the Magill document.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Footnote No. 40.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

.   P-161



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     That document, of course, comes from a different archive,
 2does it not, somewhere in Czechoslovakia?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That I believe is the Prague military archive.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Prague military archive?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have that document in front of you, please? It is
 7footnote 40.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 23.
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 23. It is only a minor point I am going to
10make on that. In the second paragraph of that it is
11evident that the local Ukrainian and white Russian
12population were helping the Nazi invaders by telling them
13where the partisans were hiding. Is that correct?
14Reporting that there was bandits around and helping them
15to find them so that they could be shot?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this was partisan country?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, of course they use the term Banden and it may or may
19not mean a real partisan unit at this stage of the war.
20It most likely means strengthening Russian soldiers that
21are, as they say, room driven, they are wandering around
22the swamp because they have been cut off.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     What period does this report cover?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is early August 1941.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many days?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, that would be less than two months into Barbarossa.

.   P-162



 1Oh, I am sorry, it covers July 27th to 11th August 1941.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Two weeks then, is it not? How big was this
 3reitenabteilung, a mounted, what, brigade, mounted
 4detachment literally?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many men?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe this is one regiment within the brigade.
 8I think there were two cavalry regiments and this is the
 9second.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, it says that it is the mounted ----
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Mounted police of the cavalry regiment two, you are
12right. So this is a group, yes, a mounted group.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a brigade.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What the size of an abteilung is. I do not know.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It varies, does it not, from unit to unit?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn to the final page, please, page 4, the
18third paragraph from the end. Does it give a figure there
19for the gesamtzahl, the overall total?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It says 6,526 of plunderers.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Plunderers have been shot by this unit?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     In that two-week period. Do you consider that to be a
24plausible figure for a relatively small unit? I am just
25enquiring.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

.   P-163



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Still on paragraph 4.2.5 ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before we leave that document, which is four
 3pages of rather dense German text, is there anywhere,
 4presumably there is somewhere, a reference to all Jews
 5being shot, sorry, the intended result or the intended
 6success not having been achieved?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     The top of the last page, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The top of the last page.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the non-success.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Failure.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. Was your question, is there another document that
12says what happened?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I expressed it rather badly. I have
14been told that there was somewhere in this document a
15passage which says, "We did not have the success we had
16hoped with driving the women into the swamp", and
17Mr Rampton has identified it. It is the top of page 26 of
18this clip. Yes. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:     Which does appear to be a direct response to the
20telegram, does it not, the order?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     A remarkable -- it does not often happen in the archives,
23does it, two archives?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That you will have a meeting of documents from two
25different archives, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you would now go back to 4.2.5, please, the only reason

.   P-164



 1to look at this is because on line 5 of that paragraph you
 2mention the higher SS and police leader von dem
 3Bach-Zelewski?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Von dem Bach-Zelewski. He was one of the major war
 6criminals, am I right?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is the counterpart of Jackelm in the North,
 8Bach-Zelewski in the middle, and he was certainly
 9considered by many to be a war criminal.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many scalps did he have, do you think, by the time the
11war ended, tens of thousands on his belt? I mean how many
12lives did he have on his conscious, that man, when the war
13ended as a mass murderer?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My guess is that it was quite a few.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite few tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened to him after the war? Was he executed?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He was tried in a court in Munich and as I ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     When?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the 1960s I believe.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the 1960s? So he survived 15 years in relative comfort
22being used in any way by the Allies as a witness?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He appeared as a witness I believe in the Wolff trial.
24I do not know what other trials he may have appeared as a
25witness.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

.   P-165


<< 1-5176 >>