Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 176

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    Day 4, my Lord, page 94. This is why I intervene
 1now, because I expressed a fear this morning that this is
 2what was going to happen.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Page 94.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Page 94, my Lord, lines 7 to 16. I will read it
 5out in case Mr Irving has not got his transcript here.
 6I will start at line 8, if I may: "This is evidence that
 7Hitler gave authority for the massacre at least2.
 8 MR IRVING:     Who is speaking?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I. "This is evidence that Hitler gave authority
11for the massacre at least", interruption by Mr Irving, "of
12Jews". I finish the question because I meant to be
13precise: "Of Jews in the East?" Answer: "Yes".
14Question: "Yes". Then there is something about
15Longerich. Mr Irving says: "I do not think there is any
16dispute between the parties on this".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just wanting to see the document that is
18being discussed.
19 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that may not matter, may it, with
20respect, in the light of what I have just said? Als
21partisan als and auszurotten is what I was asking
22questions about.
23 MR IRVING:     Have we not moved on from that document?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. With respect, my question was this: "This is
25evidence that Hitler gave authority for the massacre of
26Jews in the East?" "Yes. I do not think there is any

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 1dispute between the parties on this."
 2 MR IRVING:     That is absolutely right, but the question is, my
 3Lord, under what title the Jews were being killed, whether
 4they were being killed in this connection as Jews or as
 6 MR RAMPTON:     "The massacre of the Jews in the East? Yes".
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     With Hitler's authority.
 9 MR IRVING:     Both statements are obviously correct. I am very
10sorry you interrupted me at the point where I was making
11this very important point about con hochster Stelle, from
12the highest level.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that. If Mr Rampton is
14right, and at the movement it appears to me that he may
15well be, you would appear to have conceded quite generally
16that Hitler did indeed give authority for the massacre of
17Jews in the East. That, after all, is what you are
18presently cross-examining Professor Browning about.
19 MR IRVING:     I do hesitate to cavil about words, but whether he
20gave authority for the massacre of Jews or of the Jews is
21what would be the issue here.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to hold you to what you said
23in the course of cross-examination, but I think it is
24right to observe that you are, I think, shifting your
25ground because you did appear to concede without any
26qualification that it was Hitler who gave the authority

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 1for the massacre of the Jews in the East quite generally.
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not have the text in front of me.
 4 MR IRVING:     But from what was read out it appears that it was
 5an exchange rather than a considered statement.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true.
 7 MR IRVING:     With interruptions and "yes" and "yes".
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going, as I say, to pin you down by
 9reference to an answer you gave in the course of an
10exchange. So carry on, but I think it is fair to say
11Mr Rampton's intervention was well-founded.
12 MR IRVING:     So I will just have to wind back about 30 seconds,
13so to speak. We were looking at the handwritten footnote
14by Stahlecker. He is referring to orders that have been
15given from a higher level to the Security Police, which
16are being affected by this new draft.
17     My question to you was, can von hochster Stelle
18or from a higher level ever refer to an order from
19Hitler? Your reply was, I think you said it would be from
20the highest level if it was a reference to Hitler?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If he was getting a direct order, this is an order that
22comes from higher authority.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     At which point Mr Rampton decided to interrupt.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and there was a very good reason for it, if
25I may say so. I do not want to spend a lot of time in
26this court at my clients' expense listening to

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 1cross-examination that leads nowhere.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the position, and you can correct me,
 3Mr Irving, if I am wrong about this, is that you have made
 4the concession, and I think that is the right word, that
 5Hitler gave authority for massacre of Jews in the East.
 6That does not prevent you from saying when you are
 7confronted with this document Stahlecker note that as far
 8as this document, Stahlecker's note, that as far as that
 9document goes, that is talking about orders from an
10authority other than Hitler.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it will come as no surprise to you, I am
12sure, to realize by now that it is not going to be easy to
13untangle the thicket of conflicting authorities and
14responsibilities that led to this appalling crime on the
15Eastern Front, and we are not going to find any simple
16chain of command.
18 MR IRVING:     Or any simple written order, and that there will be
19apparent contradictions where people at one area are
20acting in one way and there is someone else acting in
21another way. We have to look for clues as to where
22people's intentions lie.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     So that is the only use I wish to make of that
25particular document.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can I add something to that?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sure.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If we look at Stahlecker's report of October 15, 1941,
 3which is page 23, paragraph 4.3.10, of those four
 4solutions that he lists he clearly embraces the first and
 5claims, and I quote: "It was expected from the start that
 6the Jewish problem would not be solved solely through
 7pogroms. On the other hand, the goal of the Security
 8Police cleansing work according to basic orders was the
 9most complete removal possible of the Jews. Extensive
10executions in the cities and flat lands were therefore
11carried out through special units." In that sense of these
12four we have another document that shows Stahlecker purely
13understood his task as to be the first of those four
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but our problem is and our problem has been for some
16weeks in this courtroom, Professor, to try to establish
17the exact chain of command from the very highest level
18downwards. We are all agreed at the complicity of Himmler
19and Heydrich and Stahlecker and Jaeger and all the others,
20but there is a final bridge that we cannot build yet and
21it is a very difficult bridge to build.
22     I am going to ask you to go back to page 14 now,
23if I may, to paragraph 4.2.4. This is another document
24which I am sure you are very familiar with, August 12th,
251941, the order to drive the Jewish women into the swamps
26apparently issued by Himmler. Driving people into the

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