Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 176

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am going to keep this for the
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But we will read it out to you.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, of course.
 6 MR IRVING:     Do you recognize this document?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I want to make sure we are talking about the same one.
 8This is the Stahlecker to Jager of August 6th 1941.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     August 6th 1941.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The [German - document not provided].
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is a document that is Gerald Fleming sent me a
13copy of that he had gotten in Riga.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Riga.
15 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that is page 15, paragraph 4.2.6 of
16Professor Browning report.
17 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with an author Eser Guilis(?)
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the man who writes on the Final Solution in Latvia,
19Andrew Eser-Guilis.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is his kind of area, is it not?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is an area he has written a book on, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In this document, if I may summarize in advance, is it
23correct to say that quite clearly the people who are
24writing this draft are planning for the Jews to survive in
25gettoes, August 6th 1941?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The civil administration is preparing a set of guidelines

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 1that implies the ghettoization of Jews and that is to
 2which Stahlecker is objecting, that they should not be
 3dealt with here as in Poland, that here they are a greater
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and if you can turn to page 2 of the document, the
 6second line of the second paragraph, I will translate it.
 7Roughly it says: "This draft evidently plans the steps
 8suggested under paragraph 5 for the umsiedlung of the
 9Jews, the resettlement of the Jews, not as an immediate
10step, but is to be regarded as a later, gradual
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the civil administration guidelines to which he is
13objecting, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the idea is that they are going to keep the Jews, if
15they fall into the Nazis hands, in separate camps, keeping
16the sexes apart so they are not going to get -- they are
17not going to increase? They are going to keep them alive
18but so that they will gradually die out, effectively, as a
19race. This was the plan in that?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is what he is referring to as the civil
21administration guidelines that he is criticising, that
22they envisage marking forced labour ghettoization and he
23is telling Jager that these are not acceptable.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if you turn to the final page, there are four
25proposals listed there, one of which, the first one, is an
26almost 100 per cent immediate cleansing of the entire

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 1Ostland of the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second proposal is preventing them from procreating,
 4from multiplying?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     The third proposal is the possibility of the intensive
 7exploitation of Jewish manpower which, of course, you
 8cannot do if you are killing them. And the fourth
 9one ----
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You cannot do it by killing all, but you can do it if you
11separate out skilled workers and kill most.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     The fourth one is a considerable alleviation of the later
13transporting away of the Jews into a Jewish reservation
14somewhere outside of Europe?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So all of these are a much more modest form of the Final
17Solution, are they not, not involving killing, being
18proposed here by the man who drafted the document?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He lists those as four possibilities. We know, of course,
20from two things down below he says this all touches on
21orders and Jager, within a week, is killing all women and
22children and ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are ----
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- Stahlecker's own report later ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are rushing ahead.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are rushing ahead. Just pause a minute.

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 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am only relying on this document purely
 2to show that whoever drafted the document (and the
 3Professor will tell us in a moment who it was) the draft,
 4the typescript draft, is making certain proposals of a
 5very general and non-lethal form for the treatment of the
 6Jewish problem in the occupied Russian areas.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     And that there is then a very important handwritten
 9comment by Stahlecker on which I rely. I will read out
10the handwritten comment in German first. "Ich halte es
11... (reading to the words in German - document not
12provided)... Stahlecker". Does Stahlecker in that rather
13complicated final paragraph, that postscript by him, his
14comment, does he refer to the fact that this conflicts
15with oral orders ----
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think he is saying ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- which have been given by a superior agency to him?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, as I interpret it, he is saying the guidelines
19prepared by the local civil administration ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is the typed guidelines here?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, no. This is his critique of the typed guidelines.
22The typed guidelines are a different document. This is
23his letter to Jager who is to talk to the people who have
24drawn up the guidelines, and that this is his rejection of
25those guidelines. He says there should not be any
26guidelines until we have discussed this orally,

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 1particularly as they touch upon oral orders that from the,
 2you know, that cannot be put in writing.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     All orders from a von hochster Stelle?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, from above.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not just from above.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Or from a higher ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     A higher plain. Have you ever heard Adolf Hitler referred
 8to as a higher plain in documents?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, it would be highest.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He would be highest.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. That is the answer I wanted. I know
13it is not very helpful for the Defence, but the correct
14answer is of course it would be von hochster Stelle, would
15it not?
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry to intervene, I am not saying this is
17disorderly cross-examination.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is far from being that. I think it is
19extremely orderly.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I agree, but it seems to be heading in what
21I regard as a impermissible direction. On 17th January,
22this is the fourth day of the trial, page 94, the
23cross-examination went like this, line 8: "This is
24evidence that Hitler gave authority" ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want me to follow, the page?
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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