Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 176

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If I am not mistaken.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must be being stupid. You have just
 3referred me to footnote 28 in Browning.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, which is on page 11.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does that help me get an English
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Because it is translated in part at the top of the
 8page, reports to the Fuhrer.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My Lord, I believe we have moved on to a new document,
10which is the July 2nd.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought I was asking about.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry, I thought we were still in December
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. We have had quite a lot of evidence
15about the July 2nd 1941 document, which is why I said I
16really must see what is actually said.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Browning, page 12.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 12?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will find a cross-reference index at
20the front of this bundle of Browning documents. Every
21single document that is referred to in the index has its
22footnote number behind it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that, but what I am looking for is
24an English translation, and which I do not think is an
25unreasonable request because this is a document that is
26quite important.

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 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, while they are looking, I hesitate to
 2indulge in one-upmanship, but I have translated the next
 3document I am going to give to your Lordship.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be helpful. This does not apply
 5to all documents. I do not think I am being
 6unreasonable. Where it is quite important I think I ought
 7to be provided with an English text.
 8 MR IRVING:     I have also translated the Funfach letters for your
 9Lordship from the Dresden argument.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait until we get to the next document
11because I really do want to find out where, if anywhere, a
12document which I think both sides attach importance to is
13to be found. I am afraid I am not really understanding
14the footnote cross-references. Am I going to be provided
15with them or not? That was a question.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry, I did not hear it as a question.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will say again. I think that the document
18of July 2nd 1941 is quite an important document. I have
19seen extracts referred to in paragraph 421 of Browning and
20I have seen a footnote in Browning but, as far as I have
21been able to find out, there is only the German text and
22I am suggesting that, if there is an English text, I would
23like to see it.
24 MR RAMPTON:     All that the experts feel is important about this
25document is set out in their report.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am not sure that can be entirely

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 1right because we have had a great deal of evidence from
 2the witness about it which is not contained in the
 3report. That is not a criticism of the witness at all,
 4but is this an important document?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. I agree it is an important document
 6but I have to say only in the respects which the
 7witnesses, both of them, Longerich and Browning, have
 8noticed in their reports, which to this effect, if I have
 9understood what this discussion is about, to this effect.
10The hand of the SS was to be hidden in the instigation of
11pogroms. It is there, if I am on the right document.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord I will prepare a translation of that
13document overnight, the relevant parts.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you would. It does not appear that we are
15going to get it from the Defendants.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I will do it, my Lord. If it is a document that
17it turns out we rely on for some purpose beyond that which
18appears in the expert reports, of course, then we must
19have it translated. But if, for our purposes, it is
20sufficiently represented and translated in the expert
21reports, then I do have to say we cannot go through these
22bundles translating everything that anybody might want to
23look at. For one thing, it takes too long and for another
24it is very expensive.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why I am being provided with wodges of paper
26consisting of pretty incomprehensible extracts, often not

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 1giving any indication where they come from? I just do not
 2follow the object of the exercise.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     When the expert reports were prepared, we asked
 4the experts, as one would expect, to prepare lists and
 5bundles of the sources for what they say.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is what we have all around the walls.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That is what this is. Should there be some
 8important document which requires to be translated in full
 9as we have done in some cases, why then we shall do it.
10But I do not see this as being such a document for my
11part ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. We will move on in that
14 MR IRVING:     Witness, we were discussing the question of whether
15the Nazis were just killing the able-bodied, military aged
16Jews whom they captured or whether the killing was being
17extended to include also the women and the children. We
18talked about a 50 year-old Jew as an example. Can I ask
19you to turn to -- there is a document dated August 6th
201941, which is referred to on page 15 of your report. It
21is footnote 42 is the document.
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Footnote 42, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 20 of the little bundle, apparently.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Might I again, your Lordship, intervene here to
25explain exactly what I mean -- I do not mean to be
26troublesome or difficult -- in relation to this document.

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 1I know this document, something about it. It is
 2well-described in Professor Browning's report, what it
 3is. The only bit which actually really matters is the
 4piece of manuscript right at the end of the document which
 5appears on the its third page.
 6 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, do you mind if I tell his Lordship what
 7matters about the document.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Well, if you want to tell his Lordship ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, to be fair to him, I have been being
10critical and he is just trying to be helpful and show me
11what ----
12 MR IRVING:     On its way to your Lordship is a translation of the
13entire document.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to put that into this tab of J.
15Do you include the manuscript, Mr Irving?
16 MR IRVING:     Yes, that is the final paragraph on the page.
17 MR RAMPTON:     In that case, I think we should have a copy of the
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you not got one?
20 MR RAMPTON:     No.
21 MR IRVING:     It was done at a relatively early hour this morning
22and I am afraid ---
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is not a criticism. I think we should have
24it is all I am saying.
25 MR IRVING:     Yes, but I will refer to the passages in the German
26text and ----

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