Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 176

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    In my little bundle, which is the one with the
 1intercepts in, your Lordship will probably find it
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     J1?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1. It could scarcely be more
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have 77.
 7 MR IRVING:     Do you have the text?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I have not yet. Sorry.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have the German. I do not have the...
10 MR IRVING:     The English translation.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but that is all right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have the transcript?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, where have we put your documents,
14Mr Irving? Do you know? Was it E?
15 MR IRVING:     E.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does anybody on the Defence side know?
17Frankly, this is so inconvenient and time consuming.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I quite agree. I do not know what is even
19being referred to actually.
20 MR IRVING:     The little clip of documents on decodes. I think
21it was called "Himmler".
22 MR RAMPTON:     I do not have a J file, as you know perfectly
23well. J1, tab 3, page 23, my Lord. There is no English.
24It is some Himmler writing, my Lord. It is the entry of
25the 18th December 1941 where Himmler writes under
26"Fuhrer": "Als partisanen auszurotten."

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 1 MR IRVING:     Have you found it in German?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can you read the words either in the ----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I think you had better wait until the
 6Judge finds it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I fear what may have happened is that, unless
 8I have put it back in the wrong place, my J1 is -- J1, tab
 93, page, sorry, Mr Irving?
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, page 23.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Can you read the first word?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would be "Fuhrer Hauptquartier Wolfsschanze", 18th day
14of the 12th month of '41 at 4 o'clock in the afternoon,
15"Fuhrer, Judenfrage".
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then on the left is "Judenfrage".
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Als partisanen auszurotten".
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate those two things, first of all,
19the "Judenfrage"?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Judenfrage" I would translate as meaning a discussion on
21the Jewish question. It would be one word as the topic of
22the discussion and "als partisanen" and "auszurotten"
23would be a note that he had made to remind him of what the
24substance or conclusions of that talk had been.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The handwriting is different, is it not? I think we
26are agreed on both sides that this is the conclusion, that

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 1they have come to the conclusion "als partisanen" and
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "To be destroyed as partisans", depending how we translate
 6"auszurotten" which has multiple meanings, but I would
 7say to exterminate or to destroy as partisans.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     "As partisans" or "like partisans"? I hear groans from
 9the public gallery, but, in fact, this is an important
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. No, it is a good point and I think, in fact, I have
12translated it as partisans. In German it could be ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it is an equity between "Juden" and
14"partisanen" and not a comparison which would be "vie",
15not "als". If it had said "vie partisanen auszurotten",
16that would be a different meaning, would it not?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Vie" would be in the same way.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the same way as?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it does not say that, does it?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does not use vie.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     It says "als partisanen", so the Jews who are being
23referred to here are to be liquidated as the partisans
24they are?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not believe that is necessarily----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am extremely sorry to

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 1interrupt. I am still trying to find this. I have J1,
 2tab 3. There are two pages 23, neither of which appears
 3to be the document you are asking about.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     That is because the one on the bottom of the page,
 5which is Mr Irving's page number, has become obliterated.
 6Try a little printed 293, can I suggest?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is the one after 22, which is legible.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which nobody has bothered to transcribe, is
 9that the problem?
10 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know why.
11 MR IRVING:     Transcribe or translate?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Transcribe, or indeed translate.
13 MR IRVING:     In my little clip it is transcribed, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wonder why I do not have that advantage?
15 MR IRVING:     That would be in the same one as my SS police
16decodes, I think, my Lord.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this translated anywhere or indeed
18transcribed anywhere?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I will find it in the bundle. Page 11 of
20Professor Browning's report, my Lord. It is also in
22 MR IRVING:     Shall I wind back my argument a little bit?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid you will have to. I am sorry you
24are having to do it. It is increasingly frustrating,
25having to deal with the documents.
26 MR IRVING:     The only reason for doing this is because

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 1I apprehend that both the defence and also opposing
 2historians pin a lot of faith on this document.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. It is a very important document, which
 4is why one would like to have it in an easier form.
 5 MR IRVING:     We have only four words to go by, Judenfrager, als
 6Partisanen and auszurotten. I am not going to argue about
 7the meaning of the word auszurotten there. It is quite
 8plain. But I am going to argue about the significance of
 9the word als. Quite clearly the intention here is that
10these Jews are to be liquidated as partisans and not like
11partisans. If it was to be like partisans, the word would
12be vie Partisanen auszurotten?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And as partisan is how I have interpreted it, that this is
14a convention, or the way in which the killing will be
15organised or justified or disguised.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, this is a later stage of the argument. First of
17all, I want to establish this stepping stone in my
18argument. To make the point, to hammer home what I mean
19by this rather subtle difference, I eat n orange like a
20tangerine, you use the word vie. We now have Hitler as
21Fuhrer, as is als. One is the equation. The other one is
22a comparison?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have the point. It is a perfectly
24comprehensible point. What is the answer?
25 MR IRVING:     Yes. Your answer again, Professor?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     

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