Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 176

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    Of course, everything is not quite that neat in Nazi
 1the SS and police leaders had been sent out by him. You
 2get sometimes straight lines and sometimes crossed lines
 3in terms of this, but Jeckeln is of a higher rank than
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, fortunately, for the purposes of this action, we are
 6only really concerned with what happens from Himmler
 7downwards. So although it is a terrible tangle of
 8guidelines and crossed lines below Himmler and below
 9Jeckeln, above Himmler it becomes relatively plain because
10above Himmler there is just Hitler?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right in presuming that we have nothing to indicate
13any kind of systematic link between Hitler and Himmler
14apart from inferences?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is where there is no documentation and one acts from
16inferences and circumstantial evidence.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. Does your Lordship wish to ask any
18more questions on that?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, just on that last answer. When you say
20there is no documentation, are you excluding from
21consideration (and it may be it is not relevant) the notes
22that Himmler made on the----
23 MR RAMPTON:     December 18th.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- agendas? Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     Shall we take December 18th?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. No documentation would be too strong. We do not

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 1have regular documentation, but we have the diary now that
 2shows the December 18th meeting that they discussed this.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what puzzled me about your answer.
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am sorry. I would stand corrected on that. You are
 5perfectly right.
 6 MR IRVING:     Professor, believe me, I do not want to stampede
 7you into giving an ill-considered answer because it does
 8not help the court one bit. So let us now move on to the
 9middle of December, shall we say? You are familiar with
10the entry in the Goebbels diary of, I believe, December
1113th relating to a speech that Hitler had made to the
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this speech by Hitler to the Gauleiters which was, in
15fact, made the previous day, December 12th 1941, in any
16way different from the old familiar Adolf Hitler
17gramophone record (as I always call it) in which he harked
18back to his prewar speech?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does seem to be more than just I had predicted this in
20the sense that ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And now it is happening?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Now it is happening now. There is a greater
23presentationist element in it, I think -- I would have
24look at the text to point out.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we find it? I have lost it because
26everything is in such a scattered ----

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 1 MR IRVING:     It would be in Professor Evans' report, I think, my
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, it is in the file, this new file, at 60
 4to 67.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say "this new file"?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Well, the Browning file.
 7 MR IRVING:     Page 67?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Browning file is L1?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, amongst other things.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And which is the page?
11 MR RAMPTON:     60 onwards, 60 to 67.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 MR IRVING:     Page 64 that we are interested in.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING:     In the afternoon the Fuhrer speaks to the
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have it now.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is where the reference to Hitler's speech begins,
19I believe?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we have this in English or not?
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is ----
22 MR IRVING:     Then on page 66 is the passage that the Defence
23relies on, I believe.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but it is in English, my Lord, I think a
25large part of it is in Evans' report, but as I do not have
26that here, I cannot tell your Lordship exactly where to

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 1find it.
 2 MR IRVING:     Do you have that passage Professor? Page 66 or 498
 3of the printed text? It is the final paragraph: "With
 4reference to the Jewish problem, the Fuhrer has decided to
 5make tabula rasa" or a clean table. "He prophesized to
 6the Jews that if they would bring about World War once
 7more, then they would experience their own destruction and
 8this was not just an empty phrase". That is probably all
 9we need to read of that.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. If one compares it, say, to Goebbels in August and
11they talk about the Fuhrer had prophesized, "The Russian
12Jews are paying now, the others, they will pay later"
13there is still a prophecy element. Here it is no longer
14what will happen in the future, but it is cast as if, when
15they said, "The Fuhrer has decided", it is cast as if
16things have already been decided, not as if there is a
17process of decision going on.
18     So, in that sense, it is not the same gramophone
19record because the August still has a future looking
20element. This one, everything is orientated towards or at
21least has the tone that all decisions have been made.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am so sorry. The documents in the shape
23they are in, I do not know, there are pages of German and
24there is no indication that I can see of what this is.
25 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is page 498 ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I have the page, but is this from?

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 1 MR IRVING:     It is the final paragraph on that page.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know, but what is the whole of the
 3page and, indeed, what are the whole of the preceding six
 5 MR IRVING:     It is the Goebbels diary of December 13th 1941.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is Goebbels diary. I see.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and the question was, did I find this a repetition of
 8the same kind of speech Hitler had made before referring
 9to his prophecy, and I was recalling a document we do not
10have before us which was a Goebbels entry from August in
11which I pointed out there was still "and someone will pay
12in the future", well, here it is, it has been decided. So
13I was disagreeing with Mr Irving that it was the same old
14gramophone record.
15 MR IRVING:     Our problem is that the August Goebbels entry is
16not before the court and has not been submitted to the
17court either in the bundles or in the experts' reports, so
18we cannot really rely upon that.
19 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would like a translation, it is
20to be found on page 337 at paragraph 8 of the Evans'
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
23 MR IRVING:     I am not going to ask you about the Hans Frank
24speech ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mind pausing a second just whilst
26I catch up?

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