Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 176

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    I do not think he is going to take flak. I think he is
 1this delicate part of the war there will not be reports
 2spreading around Germany of killing German Jews.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with the telephone call that went from
 4Himmler to Heydrich on November 30th at 1.30 pm?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     To Heydrich, transport of Jews from Berlin, kindly
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the spin that you would put on that particular
10message, do you think? How would you interpret that?
11What happened?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My interpretation, and again because we do not have the
13full documentation, it is an interpretation.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Tantalising, is it not?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. If one has to send a message, do not liquidate,
16that, beginning with the Kovno shootings, Himmler in fact
17had said, we will begin shooting these transports. The
18Kovno operation backfired. He therefore, before he sees
19Hitler, takes measures that they will temporarily hold
20that in abeyance and sends that message out. You do not
21send it out unless you think you have to countermand
22something, so Jackeln, having had Jager kill five
23transports in Kovno, was prepared and ready to do the same
24thing with the incoming transport to Riga.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am going to interrupt you. I
26think this is a document that one needs to take a bit

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 1slowly, and I am going to suggest we do it at 2 o'clock.
 2 MR IRVING:     Can I just enquire whether Jager was a subordinate
 3of Jackeln?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Jager is the head of Einsatzkommando 3, which is under
 5Stahlecker of Einsatzgruppen A, but all SS units in the
 6north would have been under Jackeln, who is the man to
 7co-ordinate the operations of the different SS formations
 8Einsatzgruppen Gendarmerie police battalions.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we look at the document----
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, am I doing this right, do you think? Am
11I asking the right questions or would you prefer me to be
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, it is cross-examination
14being conducted absolutely appropriately, but I would like
15to look at that document because I think it is an
16important one.
17 MR IRVING:     We will have it out, thank you.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     2 o'clock.
19 (Luncheon adjournment).
20(2.00 p.m.)
22Cross-Examined by MR IRVING, continued.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the document is in bundle J1.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     At tab 3, pages 11 and 12.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 2 MR IRVING:     This is the page from Himmler's telephone log
 3November 30th 1941. Do you recognize that page? Have you
 4ever looked at that either that page or the handwritten
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen the handwritten page. This is the first time
 7I have seen the English one.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Right, does it appear to be a page in Himmler's
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is consistent with the other writing in the log. I am
11not sure that I can recognize Himmler's handwriting.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult handwriting, is it not? Would you
13agree? Have you had difficulty reading Himmler's
14handwriting yourself?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have difficulty with all German handwriting.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you had made a mistake in reading handwriting like a
17letter E or an A, would you consider this to be wilful?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not really sure that that is a question
19he can answer.
20 MR IRVING:     Very well.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a matter of argument and
22comment, but not for this witness.
23 MR IRVING:     You see that the first indication is that he is
24making telephone calls "aus dem Zug", from the train, is
25that correct?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At the top, yes.

.   P-113

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he is going to the Wolfsschanze. Can you tell
 2the court what the Wolfsschanze was?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would be Hitler's headquarters.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Wolf's Lair, is that correct?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     At 1.30 p.m. he is apparently in the bunker because he is
 7making a telephone call "aus dem Bunker"?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "aus dem bunker" mean?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "From the bunker".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "From the bunker", and he telephones on the left at 13.30
12-- who does he telephone?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To Heydrich.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heydrich?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     His deputy in Prague.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     His deputy in Prague. What function did Heydrich have at
17that time apart from his function in Prague?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He was the head of the Reichs security main office which
19included the security police and the criminal police in
20the security service.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that was the executive arm of the SS, was it,
22I suppose?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It was one of the two police arms, the ordinary police
24under Daleuge, the political and basic secret police, we
25would call it, under Heydrich.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The ordinary police under Daleuge?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     He telephones Heydrich and the content of the telephone
 3conversation are the four lines on the right column?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the first one is Verhaftung Dr Jekelius.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So far as we can read it. The second one is
 8"Angebl[icher] Sohn Molotow", "apparent son of Molotow",
 9is that correct?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Or "alleged son of Molotow".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Alleged son of Molotow". Then can you read the next two
12lines, please?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung".
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are reading the handwriting?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I am looking at the handwriting right here.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do we know with a reasonable degree of probability what
17transport of Jews from Berlin was concerned, where it was
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This was going to Riga. The first transport to Riga.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Reference to a train load of Jews?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Stopping you there for a moment, Professor: if you knew
23nothing of the surrounding countryside of documentation at
24all, would any other interpretation of that line or those
25lines be possible without our 20:20 hindsight?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     

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