Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition
Pages 11 - 15 of 176
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1 A. [Sir John Keegan] I do not think I can agree with that. As an under
2graduate I think I read what I still think is a remarkable
3book called the Final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger, and
4I felt that I have learned from Gerald Reitlinger
5everything substantial that I know about the Holocaust.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Of course.
7 A. [Sir John Keegan] And that not much has been added to that since.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] There has been a book by Raul Hilberg in the interim as
9well, 'The Destruction of European Jewry'?
10 A. [Sir John Keegan] There have been an enormous number of books on the
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Not before 1977.
13 A. [Sir John Keegan] I am sorry, it is not my subject. I do not know the
14unrolling of the historiography of the subject in that
16 Q. [Mr Irving] My question to you, Sir John, was, would you agree that
17the tenor of this paragraph is to suggest that, in the
18eyes of this leading German historian, that, until my book
19on Hitler was published, there was no worth while research
20into the Holocaust, and that triggered, with this
21outrageous hypothesis, as he puts it, the entire research
22which has developed since then?
23 A. [Sir John Keegan] I do not know. I could not endorse that. I do not know
25 Q. [Mr Irving] You appreciate my question? I am not asking your opinion,
26I am asking whether this----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us cut this short. It obviously says
2what you have just indicated it says, but Sir John is not
3able to agree with it from what he knows.
4 MR IRVING: Very well. Sir John, finally I had to coerce you
5into the witness box, although in the 1980s and 1990s you
6wrote very favourable things about my writings. Can you
7in a very brief sentence explain why you were unwilling to
9 A. [Sir John Keegan] Yes. Briefly, perhaps not. Just because I admire
10Hitler's War, which I do, I admired it again when I was
11reading it last night, it does not mean to say that
12I endorse your opinions beyond what you have to say, about
13what I am interested in in Hitler's War, which is your
14picture of how Hitler conducted military operations. As a
15military historian, that is the sort of history in which
16I am interested and I think you do it extremely well in
17Hitler's War. That does that not mean to say that I can
18go further in following you. It seemed to me this was to
19be a very contentious case, and one is easily
20misunderstood, I think, in discussion of this dreadful
21episode, this terrible period in European history, easily
22misunderstood. I did not wish to put myself in a position
23where I might be misunderstood.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Would be it fair to say that you were apprehensive about
25the repercussions of giving evidence on my behalf?
26 A. [Sir John Keegan] Naturally. I am not giving on your behalf.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Giving evidence as a witness for the claimant?
2 A. [Sir John Keegan] Under subpoena.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. No. The question was ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a slightly meaningless debate. Sir
5John is right. He is here compulsoriy, not voluntarily.
6He has no choice but to answer your questions, which he
7has done very clearly.
8 MR IRVING: The evidence I was trying to produce here was
9evidence of the fact that this is an exposed position that
10one takes, and that there are professional repercussions
11which can be expected by those who take this position in
12view of the very unfortunate nature this debate has
13adopted. It is very difficult for me to produce evidence
14on that matter, particularly as a lot of the witnesses are
15not going to be called.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may say so, it is a point that does not
17really need evidence. I am not blind to the realities of
18the position and I understand the point you are putting.
19 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship and in that case I
20have no further questions.
21 MR RAMPTON: I have no questions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sir John, that finishes your time in the
23witness box. Thank you very much. You are free to go.
24 < (The witness stood down)
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think you have some procedural
26points to make?
1 MR IRVING: Yes.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you do that, can I just ask you where,
3if anywhere, you are suggesting I put the clip you have
4just handed in?
5 MR IRVING: Miss Rogers has generated a catalogue of these
6stray items and no doubt the catalogue will grow longer.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think they might say they are their stray
8items. Shall we put this into one of the C bundles,
10 MR RAMPTON: Back of J2 is suggested.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really your documents, is it not?
12 MR RAMPTON: No. Ours are L.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You probably claim J, too, do you not?
14I will put it wherever you suggest.
15 MR RAMPTON: I do not have one, so I cannot really help.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not have one either. J2?
17 MR RAMPTON: Yes, something called J2.
18 MR RAMPTON: It is Claimants Bundle E, Global, which apparently
19is in J2. Why, I do not know.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If there is a J2, which I doubt, I would like
21one. Yes, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship will see that I have
23provided to you once again a number of newspaper articles.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25 MR IRVING: I do not know how far I am testing your Lordship's
26patience on this matter, but I am a litigant in person and
1I certainly need education on this matter and possibly
2members of the press also need education as to what is
3permissible and what is not in a non-jury action.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, show me.
5 MR IRVING: I am not familiar with any ruling which says in a
6non-jury action it is open season on one or other of the
7parties in an action.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Certainly that is right. It is not. On the
9other hand, it is presumed -- you may or may not agree
10with it -- that judges are more able to ignore what is
11written outside court and more able to focus on the
12evidence. I hope I am doing that, which I have slightly
13discouraged you in the past when you have raised various
14newspaper articles. I cannot obviously tell the press
15what they should and should not say, but show me what you
16are objecting to because, if you have a point----
17 MR IRVING: I will provide your Lordship with three articles
18which I certainly do not expect you to read in an
19instant. Two are, in fact, from newspapers produced by
20Guardian Newspapers. One is the Guardian which was
21published on Saturday, a major article by a man called
22Jonathan Friedland, who is a very well-known and very
23responsible journalist. The other one is an article
24published in The Observer yesterday. The one published in
25The Observer yesterday by Mr Neil Acheson seems to equate
26David Irving, Jorg Haider and Adolf Hitler in a rather
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