Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 3rd February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY FIFTEEN
1 <Day 15 Thursday, 3rd February 2000
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, really not for
4either of your benefit but for the benefit of members of
5the public who are following the trial, we are not sitting
6tomorrow and that is going to be the pattern, generally
7speaking, for the future. That is just to save anyone a
9 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship may wish to consider what happens
10next week because Monday, everything being equal, it will
11be Professor Browning. I do not know how long he will be.
12After that will be Professor Evans. Your Lordship has
13said that Mr Irving may have time, I do not know however
14long your Lordship thinks is needed, perhaps a day or
15whatever, to prepare cross-examination for Professor
16Evans. It may, therefore be that we shall be taking a day
17off before Friday next week.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We will deal with that if and when it
19arises. I am anxious that Mr Irving should be given ample
20opportunity to prepare, because it must be exhausting, the
21burden that you are bearing at the moment.
22 MR RAMPTON: I quite agree.
23 MR IRVING: I have indicated that I would want one extra day
24between Professor Browning and Professor Evans.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is certainly reasonable. If you need
26more, say so.
1 MR IRVING: Monday I will be pretty well prepared, but to save
2the court time actually in session it will be better if
3I come well prepared.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is true too, yes.
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, at sometime this morning I will be calling
6a witness who has not arrived yet, Mr Peter Millar, on the
7Moscow matter. I do not anticipate we will need more than
8one hour with him so, with Mr Rampton's consent, I would
9propose that we continue with the cross-examination of
10myself until my witness arrives, and that we then find a
11suitable point to interrupt and slot my witness in.
12 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I was being badgered. Is that
14 MR IRVING: Peter Millar.
15 MR RAMPTON: Is that today?
16 MR IRVING: That is this morning.
17 MR RAMPTON: Any time.
18 MR IRVING: Yes. My Lord, the only other thing I want to say
19is that we mentioned yesterday the book by Gerald
20Fleming. It is right that I should say that I have now
21looked at the book and I have seen that I have marked it
22up in part. And I will give your Lordship a copy of book
23to see, which you can then pass to Mr Rampton. You will
24see that I have read, obviously, the first 22 pages of it
25from the annotations in the margin on one occasion, and
26then on another occasion I read into it specifically
1concerning the Bruns episode.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will take what you have just said as
4 MR IRVING: Perhaps I should repeat it from the box.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not bother because we have a
6transcript. I will take it as your evidence because it
7does arise out of your cross-examination and it is
8something that Mr Rampton can pursue as and when he wants
10 < Mr David Irving, recalled
11< Further cross-examined by Mr Rampton QC.
12 MR RAMPTON: I will not take time with that now, my Lord.
13 A. [Mr Irving] They have, obviously had the book already in discovery.
14 MR IRVING: Not the actual book?
15 A. [Mr Irving] That is the actual book. Those are their flags still
16stuck to the pages, and you will see that there are
17annotations that I made presumably about five or 10 years
18ago for the first 22 pages, pages five to 27, indicating
19that I have read into it for 22 pages, and then I went
20back at a later time, which is the second set of stickers
21and I looked just specifically at the Bruns episode, as
22I remembered yesterday.
23 MR RAMPTON: We will look at it in due course. Thank you,
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Give it to your side, as it were.
26 A. [Mr Irving] I shall also be writing to the solicitors of the
1Defendants to suggest that I wish to have more information
2about the provenance of that document of August 1st.
3Having seen it, it is a document I would like to know more
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 A. [Mr Irving] Also one other point the transcript we were reading
7yesterday of the speech I made in Bow, it is wrong by one
8year. It is May 1993. It should be 1993.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is dated '92 at the moment.
10 A. [Mr Irving] It is dated 1992 at the moment. I have checked the famous
11diary and it is May 1993, by which time, of course, many
12things had happened to justify the remarks I made in my
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Rampton?
15 MR RAMPTON: One small point first, MR IRVING: do you remember
16the discussion, I think on Tuesday, that is two days ago,
171st February, about the Nuremberg document PS 3051?
18 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is at any rate one version of a telex from Heydrich at
201.20 a.m. on the morning of 10th November 1938.
21 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] You in court would not accept that your reference to that
23document as 3052 was wrong and that, indeed, you were
24referring to 3051. Do you remember that?
25 A. [Mr Irving] I was referring to two documents in my source reference.
26The other one, if you remember, was Karl Wolff. I have
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