Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 93

<< 1-591-93 >>
    I was certainly in the restaurant, but that does not mean
 1know what he has said you can put it to me and I will say,
 2yes, I heard him say this it or not.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea what he said. I am asking you. You were
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I confirmed from this diary I was in the restaurant. It
 6is a very big restaurant like a typical German beer hall.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you told us a moment ago that you would not
 8have got there in time to here Mr Zundel speak because you
 9would not have been interested.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not exactly what I said.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is simply false statement.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, I do not make false statements under oath.
13I am careful not to and the words you have used are not
14the words I said. I did not say "I did not get there in
15time to hear him speak".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You tried to give us the impression you were not there
17when Zundel spoke.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I gave the impression that if I have had an
19exhausting day flying to Rome and back, exhausting for the
20reasons you are familiar with, then I would not have hung
21around to hear somebody speaking. I would have gone and
22tucked myself down somewhere with a glass of beer or with
23a cup of coffee and read the local newspaper.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on the
25Goebbels' finds. I one 'plate'"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-81

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does that mean?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     We had had some prints made, I had had some prints made
 3that day in the Munich archives I think, in the Institute.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is one of the borrowed plates?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That you had printed?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. If I put it in quotation marks then that
 8tells me I did not show the actual glass, but I showed the
 9print I had made of it.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who took the plates back to Moscow after they had been
11tested in this country?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It should be evident. I think it was July 4th or July
133rd -- July 2nd the two slides were legally borrowed or
14returned by Sasha during the date of the archives.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we turn on ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     "July 3rd at 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was seated in a
17car across the street." That was Jonathan Bastable who
18had arrived from London as a courier bringing the plates
19from the laboratories.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on, will you.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Still July 3rd: At 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was
22seated in a car across the street. He handed the glass
23plates back to me. I asked him to conduct the interviews
24requested by Andrew Neil re the authenticity of the
25provenance of the microfiche". In other words, he was to
26speak with the Russian archivists to ask what they knew

.   P-82

 1about where they came from, the glass plates.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read the next bit if you are not willing to.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wanted you to read the next paragraph. It is my fault.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     "I replaced the two plates, March to September 1934, in
 6the box of 13, making a total of 15. Unfortunately, the
 7archivist told me today that the archives will not under
 8their new agreement with 'the Germans' let me see the
 9other big boxes again. Operation stable door, I already
10have nearly all that was necessary".
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can understand that. It does not need an explanation.
12So you put back the two plates that you borrowed from
13London, is that right?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That I borrowed for London and had now come back from
15London and they are put back where they belonged.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     After about three weeks?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will go, if we may, to the bottom of the page at 1.50.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     "At 1.50 p.m. archivist asked me outside into the corridor
20and with embarrass asked me if I had taken plates out of
21the collection. I replied that we had borrowed plates
22with permission but had returned all those that we had
23borrowed intact."
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was not true, was it?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it was, I suppose, suppressio vale rather than
26suppressio falsi. I have no original items from their

.   P-83

 1collection in my possession. Only the copies we or they
 2had made. I then voluntarily hand wrote a declaration
 3stating this and had it translated into Russian and signed
 4both text and took a photocopy.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, technically speaking, that was true of course.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know the legal, it is a boring expression, but do
 8you know the lawyers' expression swearing by the card?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Swearing by?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The card?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No. That is legalese.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In other words, literally true but, as a matter of
13reality, a false declaration. Do you agree?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but no attempt had been made to conceal the fact that
15I had those glass plates. In Munich, for example, I took
16them into the printing room in the basement, showed them
17to the staff there, had them properly printed by the staff
18there. While I was in Munich I then had two of the
19pages -- I am sorry, do I have your attention?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Sorry.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     While I was in Munich I had two of pages sent upstairs to
22the Institute and asked them: Will you please verify
23these pages I have obtained from Moscow. I also
24simultaneously sent two pages to the German Federal
25archives in Koblenz and asked them to verify the
26handwriting as well. So I made not the slightest attempt

.   P-84

 1to conceal that I had those plates.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Except from the Russians?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Except from Russians.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What Tatiana's response when you revealed
 5that you had actually removed them from the archive?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I then wrote the declaration, my Lord, saying that
 7everything that had been removed the archives, using, so
 8to speak, the passive voice, was back and that nothing was
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But was she shocked and horrified? That is what I am
11really getting at.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No, because, of course, they had allowed my to. They knew
13perfectly well they had allowed me to take plates out as
14well. So when I gave her that statement which was really
15the statement she was asking for, and if you read on, my
16Lord -- I am not sure if it is continued -- she then told
17me a few minutes later at 2.05 p.m. that they were most
18grateful for this, as this was an allegation that had come
19from Munich. In other words, my rivals had ratted on me
20and had sent a fax to Moscow saying, "He has got some of
21the plates".
22 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I believe his Lordship may not have
23quite got the whole of the picture. One plate was removed
24and hidden for overnight?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

.   P-85

<< 1-591-93 >>