Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 93

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    That is not an answer to my question, but it really does
 1not matter. Are you quite certain in your own mind that
 2at no stage during the trip of these plates illicitly
 3taking plates from Moscow to London, they were in any
 4danger of being damaged en route?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     You should have seen the packaging I put them in.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where did you put them, in a suitcase or your hand
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     They were put into this hard suitcase down there. They
 9were heavily wrapped in foam packaging and with layers of
10cardboard. They were safer with me than they had been for
1155 years in the Russian archives.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Hand luggage?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Hand luggage, and they were safer with me than they had
14been in those flimsy boxes for 55 years with the Russians
15boxes, in which boxes many of the plates were already
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Had you any idea what means might be used to test the
18plates for authenticity when you got home?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It was obvious they were going to test the plates
20glass by probably spectroscopy or by similar non-invasive
21methods, and similarly also the emulsion. They would have
22chosen the part of the emulsion that was not written upon,
23so to speak.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, in the event the emulsion test was not done for fear
25of damage, that is right, is it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     If you say so.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am only telling you what the Sunday Times tells me on a
 2piece of paper.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We produced the reports in discovery from Pilkington and
 4from the laboratories, the photographic laboratories. We
 5carried out the appropriate or rather the Sunday Times
 6carried out the appropriate test.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You broke your journey I think in Munich, did you not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The flight to Moscow was made from Munich because there
 9were ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but did you not break your journey and go to Rome?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     On June 9th?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That was from Moscow?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No. On June 9th I flew from Munich to Rome and back.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it was 13th. If we look at the diary page
15B10 ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- I think you went on 13th from Munich to Rome and back
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where were the plates when you went to Rome?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     They were with me at all times. No, I am sorry. I am
22sorry, they were not. When I went to Rome I carried just
23a very small bag with me containing not even my
24typewriter. It contained just my overnight things for the
25stay in the university and then to come back to Munich,
26and I left that case in the hotel safe.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With the plates in it?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were not concerned there might be a fire or something
 4of that kind or are the safes fireproof?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that thought did not cross my mind admittedly.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     While you were in Munich, can you turn the page to B11,
 7four paragraphs down ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- you say that you phoned Susie, that is Susie Terplar,
10from airport?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Book me into ... room 727. 7 p.m. back down to her and
13phoned Altans." Who is Altans?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He is a young German hot head.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean by a "hot head"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He turned out to be a hot head.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is a hot head in this context?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     A typical -- a political hot head. He started off pretty
19level and respectable, but he gradually flaked out.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In which direction does his hot headedness lead him?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, over the map really. He was right-winger, he was a
22left-winger. He went to Israel. He ended up in the pay
23of the German Intelligence services. It is difficult to
24fix him on the map at all.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was he on the right at this stage in history?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know what you would call the right.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If he is arranging a big meeting for Ernst
 2Zundel, it is fair to say he is not on the left.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Put it this way, anything ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think he was a revisionist. I think that is a fair word
 5to pin on him.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Certainly I would accept that he was a revisionist. By
 7"on the right" I mean somebody who would not approve of
 8coloured immigration into Germany or anywhere else in
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think he would actively advocate it.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "He is delighted to hear my voice. Has arranged a big
12meeting for Ernst Zundel." That is our old friend from
13Toronto, is it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see any reference in this paragraph to coloured
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I ask you a question. You have answered it. "Has
17arranged a big meeting for Ernst Zundel"?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is our old friend from Toronto, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "To address this evening at the Zunfthouse restaurant.
22Would I come and speak too. Answer: Provided you take
23three boxes of my books along to sell", and then you add
24the wry note, "All's well that ends well."
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did Mr Zundel speak at this meeting?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? You were there.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have a record or a habit of not bothering to
 4attend other people's speeches if I can possibly avoid it,
 5and if I have had an exhausting day flying down to Rome
 6and back I would not have hung around to listen to
 7somebody speaking.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not sure I can really accept that answer, I am
10 A. [Mr Irving]     You were not listening what I just said. I had had an
11exhausting flight down to Rome and back under the
12circumstances you are familiar with and I was not likely
13to hang around to listen to somebody speak.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, what time in the evening does Zundel speak
15then or do you not even know that?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Why should I know after eight years?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will tell you. Look at the bottom of the page: "8 p.m.
18taxi Zunfthouse, around 120 people packed into the
19restaurant, much applause, Zundel spoke"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on Goebbels'
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were then when Zundel was speaking?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I was certainly in the restaurant, but that does not mean
26to say that I am listening to what he is saying. If you

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