Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 93

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    I took it out at the lunch break, concealed it, noting
 1of the archive closing, pick it up, take it to the
 2photographers, the Sunday Times office, have all pictures,
 3the images printed.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It was prior to taking it back to England?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. This was in the middle of my visit to
 6Moscow. We then had these glass plates printed up in
 7Moscow and took them back the first thing the next morning
 8and put them back in the box. That same day the archivist
 9said, "Sure, borrow some more", and he allowed us to
10borrow more and we did the same again.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Can you turn over page to your entry of 11th June
12which is B8. Can I start at 10.30 because I think we have
13had enough of your breakfasts in Moscow: "10.30 a.m. taxi
14to the archives. I return the borrow August 1939 fiche",
15that is the one we were talking about, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Why.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it had stayed out overnight, had it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but not out in the open.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I understand that.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It had gone walkies.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Millar was wrong in saying it was returned the same
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think he did say that.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I misunderstood. "I returned the borrowed August
251939 fiche and borrowed two by the same means", that means
26illicitly, does it not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is March, June, September 1934, that is the night of
 3the long knives period?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     A vitally important period in Nazi history. It has been
 5concealed from the world for 55 years up to that point and
 6I found it.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Including the Rome purge"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I was overjoyed to find these two fiches. That clinches
10the importance of this stay". Over the page, please: "We
11left the archives at 5 p.m. I passed the hidden plates",
12is it?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "To Peter Millar to get it", it must be "them" "printed up
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then you took them via ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Actually it looks like one plate rather than two.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know. Never mind. It was in fact I think two because
20we know from the documents that two plates were brought
21back for testing.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, these obviously were not the ones brought back
23because we had them printed up that night and, therefore,
24put back the next morning.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you borrow one illicitly put it back and then two more
26and put them back, but the two that came to England, I do

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 1not really mind which they were, the two that came to
 2England were also taken illicitly?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have to halt you there and say that this is now
 4June 11th which is the day before I returned to England.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I do think that these ones were borrowed illicitly,
 7because certainly on that first trip Dr Bondarev allowed
 8us, he permitted us to take some plates out and have them
 9printed up overnight. So that may be these two.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. The two that went back to London via Munich were
11taken illicitly, were they not? There were five in all.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but if Peter Millar had them printed up overnight
13I would not have had to take them back to England to get
14printed. The ones that I took out, which would have been,
15I would have taken them out on June 12th ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I do not know what time you ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Presumably.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not think you went back to the institute of whatever
19it was before you left for Munich. We had better look at
20the diary.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am not going to argue about this, because of
22course I have made a total admission in writing to you on
23the question we of which ones were taken out and which
24ones were left.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know. I will finish now with one question. For the
26sake of your good name and good standing as an historian,

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 1for the sake of £75,000, for the sake of beating the
 2Munich Institute to the line and for the sake of your
 3Goebbels book, on two occasions at least you illicitly
 4took valuable slides out of this Institute and on one of
 5those occasions you transferred them via aeroplane to
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you proud of yourself?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I said earlier, no, I am not. It is not kind of thing one
10wants to do as an historian. But when you are dealing
11with the Russian archives which at any moment may seal up
12again, as they have in the meantime, so these plates are
13no longer available and the Germans are sitting on the
14plates too, they are just beginning to publish them now
15eight years after I was there. I think I did a valuable
16service to the community. Every single plate that I had
17copied I gave copies of the prints that I made to both
18German archives, both in Koblenz and also to the Goebbels'
19archives at his home town. So I made them immediately
20available to the world of historians. So I did a service.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The end may have been worthy. The result may have been
22desirable, but the means that you used, perhaps you would
23agree, were, morally speaking, I am not interested in the
24legality ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     They were illicit.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Illicit and would you accept the word rather shabby?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I just want to be clear about
 3this. Shabby, something not to be proud of, but is it the
 4case that is put to Mr Irving that he broke an agreement?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It must be, if he uses the word "illicitly", it
 6must be that he knows impliedly he does not have
 7permission, which is a breach of an agreement.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we ask Mr Irving that. Did you know that
 9what you were doing amounted to breach of an
10agreement ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I disagree in view of the fact ----
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- with the archivists?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     --- in view of the act that they allowed us to borrow the
14plates anyway, it was obviously neither here nor there to
15them, and there was certainly no agreement either verbal
16or written.
17 MR RAMPTON:     There is no written or verbal agreement, but ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- as I think you told us earlier, no self-respecting
20historian would deliberately remove such valuable material
21from an archive without the permission of the archivist in
22the ordinary way?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think that I damaged the world of historians one
24bit. In fact I think I benefited them by having done it
25the way I did.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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