Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 93

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And I know that you fell out in some way (and I am not
 2interested in why unless you want to tell his Lordship in
 3re-examination) you fell out with them for some reason and
 4they did not actually pay you, the contract ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the reason is, of course, material to this case --
 6we will find that later -- but the deal was they would pay
 7me £75,000 plus VAT for the particular ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did they ever pay any of that?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     They paid one-third of it, yes, and they welshed on the
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you say it was not material?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The reasons why they welshed on the deal is evident from
13the discovery. They came under immense world wide
14pressure. Andrew Neil said he had never experienced
15anything like it.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, you mean we are back at the traditional enemy,
17sort of thing, are we?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you wish to encapsulate it in that phrase ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am trying to use shorthand.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     --- but you have seen the discovery, you have seen the
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But none of them from anybody who is a Defendant in this
23case, I hope?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I do not see that it is material. Mr Irving, so you
26had two incentives to make this exercise a success?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Three incentives.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One was that you would then, as I say, quite properly get
 3the ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Kudos.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- kudos for having the job which, I have no doubt, you
 6properly did when you had done it?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the second incentive was financial because you had a
 9good contract?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the third incentive was that I wanted the material
11for my biography of Dr Goebbels.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Right, that is three very sensible (and I make no
13criticism) three strong incentives to be the first there?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, and the people you call the traditional
15enemy had precisely the same incentives for stopping me.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You knew, however, that the Sunday Times -- this is after
17the Hitler diaries fiasco, was it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The Hitler diary fiasco in April 1993.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. So you knew that the Sunday Times would be very
20wary, and no doubt they told you so, of getting their
21fingers burned a second time?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Andrew Neil sad to me, "We are very wary about this here
23in the office, as soon as we hear the word Nazis and
24everybody gets very nervous", and my response was,
25"Andrew, this is the chance, I am giving the Sunday Times
26a chance to rehabilitate themselves".

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One of the conditions, therefore, of this deal was no
 2doubt that the Sunday Times had to be satisfied of the
 3authenticity of the plates?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     At some stage, either before or after the first trip, they
 5made a contractual condition that I should obtained the
 6opinion of experts on the content of the diaries, and that
 7they should have other means of verifying of the integrity
 8of the actual material.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And that in due is what happened, was it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You will see have seen from this trial that I attach
11great importance to the integrity of the document.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn in the same tab of the same file to page B7
13to your diary entry of 10th June 1992?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Rose 7.45 a.m. wretched breakfast at Cosmo", is that an
16anagram of Moscow or a misprint?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is "Cosmos".
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Cosmos, is it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To looks to me like an anagram of Moscow, but never mind.
21"With dried salami", etc., yes, I sympathise with you.
22"At 10 a.m. at the archives continued methodically
23reading the microfiches and flagging in catalogue. It was
24drizzling with rain. I illicitly borrowed the fiche we
25had found covering the weeks before the war broke out, and
26took it out of the archives at lunch for copying (in case

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 1the Germans managed to prevent this)".
 2     Will you explain exactly what that means?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I knew from my contact in Munich that the head of the
 4German Federal Archive System, Professor Karlenburg, was
 5due to visit Moscow a few days later, and he was coming
 6effectively with a large empty suitcase to pick up all the
 7looted Nazis' documents, and my experience then was that
 8when these documents get back into German archives they
 9vanish for several years and are unable to the
10international community for historians. This has happened
11again and again and again. So it was important on the
12basis of what you have is what you have got, by hook or by
13crook to get these vital materials out of the KGB archives
14and make them available to the world of historians, which
15is what I did.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, whether or not you had a written agreement with
17the Russians, which I understand you did not have, you
18describe to your own diary your conduct in taking this
19fiche as illicit?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Totally illicit. I am deeply ashamed to have done that.
21You do not normally go into archives and remove materials,
22even though of course they are going to put them back the
23next day, but desperate situations call for desperate
24remedies. This was an archive with no copying
25facilities. It had no microfiche reader. There was no
26means of reading the materials they had. They did not

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 1know what they had.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When you took it outside, and I do not know what Mr Millar
 3really meant, I did not really understand it, but he put
 4it in some kind of envelope when he took it outside
 5disguised as something, that is why he said "James Bond"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it was not disguised as something. Obviously these
 7were glass plates.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not interested in that.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You just mentioned this. I just said they were properly
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am not suggesting they were not. You took it
12out. You say: "I tucked the envelope with the glass plate
13into a hiding place before re-entering"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What sort of a hiding place?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Behind a wall.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was it still raining?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No. Certainly I would not have left it standing in the
19rain obviously. It was very well wrapped in plastic and
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. We can take this quite shortly now I think?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am not following. What was the
23point of tucking the envelope into a hiding place before
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I took it out at the lunch break, concealed it, noting
26where I concealed it, and I would come out then at the end

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