Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 93

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    So you were -- I do not blame you for getting in a muddle
 1back here were also nicked?
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     At the time it certainly appears that I was, yes.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you, Mr Millar.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I, before you re-examine, Mr Irving, just
 5ask one question?
 6     Looking at what you know Mr Irving did, do you
 7take the view that he did break an agreement? You used
 8the term "borrow", in inverted commas, but do you take the
 9position that he was breaking an agreement with the
11 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No agreement that we made specifically touched on the
12terms of whether or not the plates should be taken out of
13the archive. It may have been and it could have been
14understood, certainly, that they were not to be taken out,
15but there was no formal agreement.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Could have been understood?
17 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     It could have been understood, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you. Mr Irving, you have a right to re-examine.
19 < Re-examined by MR IRVING
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     By the use by Mr Rampton of the word "nicked", do you
21understand "stolen"?
22 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes. I understood he was using it in inverted commas and
23I used the same verbal inverted commas around them on the
24way back.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     And do you understood by the word "stolen" the permanent
26depriving of somebody else of their rightful property?

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 1 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am bound to say, Mr Irving, I did not
 3really understand Mr Rampton's use of the word "nicked" to
 4mean that, but perhaps he would clarify that.
 5 MR IRVING:     Well, your Lordship moves in different circles from
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, not only did I put the word "nicked" in
 8inverted commas, but I actually said to the witness,"And,
 9of course, I do not mean stolen because they were taken
10back", and I knew it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was my understanding.
12 MR IRVING:     His final words were that "Mr Irving nicked these
13plates", and the circles that I move in the word "nicked"
14certainly means permanently depriving somebody of their
15rightful property which is stealing.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I invited him to clarify and he
17has now done so.
18 MR IRVING:     We have now clarified. Thank you very much.
19(To the witness): So there can no doubt on two matters,
20Mr Millar, at no time have I permanently deprived the
21Russian archives of their property?
22 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Not to my knowledge.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not to your knowledge. You inadvertently stated that,
24"the plates on the waste ground were left there
25overnight, in my view". Is it not true that, in fact, the
26plates were removed from the archives for a couple of

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 1hours, left in the cardboard protecting container there
 2behind the wall on the waste ground until the close of the
 3archives and then handed to the photographer so they were
 4not ----
 5 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is correct, indeed true. The intention was to
 6present them to Andrew Neil the next morning, and, as I
 7recall, we went back to the archive, you should me where
 8they were. I expressed horror and at that stage we said,
 9"Let us take these now the archive is closed". I asked
10if we should take them back immediately, but the archive
11was then closed, so, I said, "Right, we will take them to
12show to the editor and, hopefully, they can be replaced
13first thing in the morning without anyone noticing they
14have ever been gone".
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Precisely, and this, of course, had been the subject of a
16formal admission by myself. Once more, Mr Millar, did you
17or I or the Sunday Times at any time by our actions
18endanger these plates?
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     With the exception of having left them for those few hours
20on the piece of waste ground, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. No further questions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you one further question,
23Mr Millar? Did the Sunday Times pay Mr Irving the agreed
25 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That I think you will find is the subject of a separate
26legal action. There was ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It does not stop you answering the question.
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No, there was certainly a fee agreed, but at some stage a
 3technical argument arose (to which I am not fully privy)
 4about whether or not Mr Irving was in breach of that
 5contract, and a lengthy, certainly a legal case was begun
 6(and eventually settled) as to whether or not he should be
 7paid any or all of the sums owing to him.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, well, I will not pursue that. Thank you very. You
 9are free to go.
10 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Thank you.
11 < (The witness stood down)
12< MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
13< Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want a break, Mr Irving?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, sir, I will go straight on -- unless your Lordship
16wishes a five-minutes adjournment or Mr Rampton?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am going to abbreviate this as far as
18I sensibly can.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     We are on Moscow now, right?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I am only on Moscow and then I finish. Mr Irving,
21you had heard of the existence of these microfiches at
22Moscow, I do not know when, but some time early in '92,
23was it?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Around about May 6th 1992.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You thought you had a deal with Macmillan to publish them
26if you could, as it were, get your hands on them?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what is the truth?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I was writing a biography on Dr Joseph Goebbels which was
 6under contract with Macmillan Limited at that time.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And what happened to that contract with Macmillan?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     In September 1992 I wrote them a letter asking if I could
 9buy the rights back from them because I was not happy with
10them as a publisher.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am sorry. You are going to have to be a little
12bit more, what shall we say, less opaque about this in a
13minute. We will use the file, if we may. Can you turn to
14page A1? It is not the first page. It is about the tenth
15page. A1 in the first section of that file?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this the one called "Background Information"?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It should be a facsimile from you to the Editor of the
18Sunday Times dated 26th May 1992 marked "confidential",
19eight pages in.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Eight pages in?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The numbers to look for, though they sometimes look like
224s, are called A1, etc., in a black circle at the bottom
23right-hand corner of the page. I am sorry, as with all
24the other documents, there is even one called 007 which is
25interesting in the context.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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