Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 93

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    I only have one other point I wish to examine you on,
 1later, I borrowed two of the glass plates from the
 2archives without permission.
 3 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is correct. Did I put the plates back to the best of
 5your knowledge on the following day?
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     At my insistence.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there any indication that I was intending not to put
 8them back?
 9 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No, there was not.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     What did we do with those plates on the night that they
11had their night out, so to speak?
12 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     What was done with those plates was that you took them
13and, using two pieces of cardboard, left them outside the
14archive building.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but what did we do with them?
16 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     They were then shown to the Sunday Times representative.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did we have prints made on that night by a man called
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is right. They were taken away and used to take a
20photographic copy.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You expressed your disapproval of this technique?
22 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I expressed my disapproval of the fact that they had been
23removed from the archive because I thought it was
24jeopardising the chances of our continued access.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite right. On the following day, did the archive allow
26us to remove plates with permission?

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 1 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     After some discussion with them, yes, that is right.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this permission was granted on more than one occasion?
 3 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     To the best of my knowledge, it may have been, but my
 4memory is very vague on that part.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Did we take two plates, or did I take two
 6plates, back to England by the same method for the purpose
 7of evaluation?
 8 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I am not sure what you mean by "the same method".
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, without permission?
10 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     There was some question of whether or not permission had
11been granted at that stage. Certainly two plates were
12taken back to England and were copied and as soon as
13valuation -- primarily because at the time we were very
14concerned about the authenticity. The Sunday Times had
15been caught with its pants down over the Hitler diaries.
16It did not want to repeat the same thing with Mr Goebbels.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I should really have identified you formally at the
18beginning of this examination-in-chief by saying you were
19acting on behalf of the Sunday Times at all times on this
21 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is correct, yes -- in a freelance capacity.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In a freelance capacity, but you were the go-between
23between myself and Mr Andrew Neil?
24 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes, after you had initially made the contact with him,
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the Sunday Times quite properly insisted on having the

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 1plates authenticated?
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Very much so. That was our major concern at that stage,
 3to make sure that these were genuine.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. To the best of your knowledge, did we have these
 5plates tested by a glass company, a glass laboratory?
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes. I remember quite clearly that they were tested.
 7I think possibly it was Pilkingtons. They were tested to
 8make sure that they were of an age and manufacture that
 9they purported to be.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did we have the emulsion of those photographic plates or
11did the Sunday Times emulsion of those photographic
13 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Every possible test was done with a great concern about
14the authenticity, and at no stage did we want to be seen
15that we had got diaries that could be called into question
16as to their genuine nature.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you at any time see me handing the plates in a way
18that might have caused severe damage to them?
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Certainly not handling, apart from the occasion when they
20were removed. You did not handle them in any way, but
21I do think that the treatment on that night was perhaps
22unwise, to say the least.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the elicit nature of the removal?
24 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Sorry?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can I ask this, did Mr Irving
26explain to you why he brought two of the plates, or

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 1whatever it was, back to England?
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes. It was clearly understood at the time that was for
 3the purposes of establishing the authenticity and, as I
 4say, it was part of the whole agreement that every check
 5had to be made to be certain that these were genuine 1940s
 6microfiche plates.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Did you know in advance that he was going to do that?
 8 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     I have no further questions, my Lord.
10 < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have very few. Mr Millar, can we just look at
12your witness statement, please? It is probably best if
13Mr Millar is given the Moscow file.
14 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Sorry, could I ask you to speak up slightly?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I am sorry. It sounds very discourteous, I was
16trying enquire -- your Lordship has a Moscow file,
17I think?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know. Has Mr Irving had this?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes. On Tuesday, I think.
20 MR IRVING:     What document are you going to refer to?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am, first of all, going to refer to Mr Millar's
22witness statement which is tab 3 of C4 -- not that one,
23Mr Millar, I am sorry. I want you to have both. It is
24not your fault at all. There should be a file there
25marked C4 containing witness statements.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is not, so can he have a C4? It is

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 1blue, I think.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is tab 3, I think, of that witness statement.
 3This is very confusing, Mr Millar. It is certainly not
 4your fault. That is your witness statement?
 5 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I have that anyway, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have that anyway? There we go. You did not need the
 7file at all. Can you turn to the second page of your
 8witness statement, please? In the middle of the page
 9there is a paragraph which begins "On one occasion", do
10you see that?
11 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to read it. "On one occasion, after the
13archives for the day, to my extreme annoyance, Mr Irving
14told me that he had secretly removed two plates from the
15archives to show to Andrew Neil, the Sunday Times editor
16who was also in Moscow at the time. These plates he had
17concealed in a James Bond-style fashion outside the
18Institute. I told him this was foolish and risked
19jeopardising the whole agreement - an opinion he thought
20to be rather 'wimpish'. I insisted they be replaced the
21next day, which, to the best of my knowledge, they duly
23     Then if you skip a paragraph you see that, so as
24far as you were aware, you were not, I do not think, a
25party to this directly, the same thing seems to have
26happened with two more plates; is that right?

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