Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 93

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    I am not actually -- we looked at them at the time. They
 1were not full script. You had a magnifying glass, and
 2possibly a light source behind.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     When I went to Moscow, had the Sunday Times provided me
 4with a list of episodes to look specifically for?
 5 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     We had certainly at the Sunday Times, and I advising them,
 6looked at certain episodes that we were particularly
 7interest in, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was I going to be there only for a limited space of time?
 9 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     As far as we knew.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would it therefore have been practicable for me to have
11browsed at length in the diaries for passages which were
12not on the list?
13 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I do not think so.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I just want to ask you once again. There was no
15written agreement between us and the Russians?
16 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     There was no written agreement that I was aware of.
17Whether or not anything else had been arranged between the
18legal department of the Sunday Times I have no idea. That
19was not my capacity.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     There was no verbal agreement between us and the Russians
21to your recollection or, if there was an agreement, what
22nature did the agreement have, to your best recollection?
23 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     My best recollection was verbal agreement that we would
24have access to the plates, that we would look at them and
25eventually this would be with a view to publishing some of
26the contents.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You say to publishing some of the contents. Was
 2that restricted to a book or any kind of publication that
 3we desired?
 4 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I do not recall that being discussed.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they limit in it in any way?
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     I do not recall them doing so.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the third page of your witness statement you say that
 8you double checked some of the transcriptions that I had
 9made, and the translations. Did you find any reason to
10criticise the work that I had done?
11 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Certainly the translations -- I am a fluent German speaker
12and the translations were excellent. The transcripts
13I had some difficulty because the archaic Gothic script is
14difficult to decipher, but in those stretches where
15I could make out words it seemed to be accurate.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Moving rapidly on, the final matter on your witness
17statement is that you have visited me on several occasions
18in my office in London, in my study.
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     At the time when we were negotiating over the Goebbels
20diaries, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     This was 1992, is that correct?
22 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is correct.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you see hanging over my desk or anywhere in that
24office an Adolf Hitler portrait?
25 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No. I would have noticed that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there an Adolf Hitler signature on the desk in a frame

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 1or anything like that?
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     There was, as I refer to in the statement, a water colour
 3which I was extremely interested in, and you said that it
 4had been painted by Adolf Hitler and I said it was rather
 5better than my mother-in-law's.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it an original or a duplicate?
 7 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     It was, as far as I was aware, an original. I asked you
 8that and you told me it was.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Your mother-in-law has got a picture by
10Hitler as well?
11 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     My mother-in-law does water colours, sir.
12 MR IRVING:     Finally, Mr Millar, would you turn to the little
13bundle of the diary? Is it lying around there somewhere?
14Otherwise, I will hand one up to you. I would ask you to
15just to go to one entry of June 9th 1992.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you have a copy for me, Mr Irving, or have
17you handed it up before?
18 MR IRVING:     It has been handed up before about four or five
19days ago with a green corner on it. I have one here.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I will have it here. Is the first
21line "invitation needed"?
22 MR IRVING:     Almost certainly, my Lord. It looks like a diary.
23There are obviously many entries referring to Mr Millar,
24but I think we will stick with the one day in Moscow when
25we negotiated with the Russians, June 9th 1992, Tuesday.
26Does your Lordship have it?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not got there yet but I think I have.
 2 MR IRVING:     This is the famous diary. There are no little
 3racist ditties in it, I am afraid.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stick to the task in hand.
 5 MR IRVING:     "9.30 a.m. collected Millar at Metropole". That is
 6the hotel. I would ask Mr Millar, would you read rapidly
 7through those two paragraphs?
 8 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes, I have read them.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not so can you give me a moment?
10(Pause for reading).
11 MR IRVING:     In fact, I am going to ask you to read the first
12four paragraphs down to the words "Left at 5 p.m."
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     (Pause for reading) Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     Very well. I think there is no need to read them
15out in court is there, my Lord?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is really a matter for you. There is
17certainly no need to.
18 MR IRVING:     I would just ask him to paraphrase it. Am I
19correct in saying this shows us arriving at the archives,
20dealing with a man called Dr Bondarev?
21 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who was Dr Bondarev to your recollection?
23 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     He was curator in charge of the archives. Certainly he
24was the man who controlled access.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he in overall charge of the Russian archive system?
26 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No, only of that particular building.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who was in overall charge of the Russian Federation
 2archive system?
 3 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     The man whom we had to contact to gain access was
 4Bevininski at the Russian Federation Archives building.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who?
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Sorry, Tarasov. I am confusing the two.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Tarasov. You negotiated with him in Russian?
 8 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And I talked with him in English and German?
10 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     That is correct.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And eventually he lifted the telephone and he telephoned
13 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Yes, he did.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of directions did he give to Bondarev in general
16 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     He confirmed -- we had already seen Bondarev -- that we
17were to be allowed to see the plates and to work with
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Was any kind of restriction placed on that access in
20that telephone call, do you remember?
21 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No, certainly not in that telephone call.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there any kind of written paper passed between myself
23and Bondarev and Tarasov on that occasion?
24 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I only have one other point I wish to examine you on,
26Mr Millar, and that is as follows. Two or three days

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