Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 93

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    I know it is. What I am not proposing at the
 1I wanted to cross-examine, your Lordship could ask me to
 2do so, and I would do so, if asked, or Mr Irving might
 3want me to.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will have to wait and see what is in the
 5file. Mr Irving may have a view about this as well.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Of course. I add this. For fairly obvious
 7reasons, the one witness on this that we are going to call
 8is Dr Funke from Berlin, who is an expert in this area in
 9academic life in Germany, and he will be called as a
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I think it has to be put.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     In view of the undertones in that remark, can I ask what
13other witnesses they do not intend calling, because we
14have prepared very extensively for cross-examination of
15Professor Levin, and Professor Eatwell.
16 MR RAMPTON:     He is not coming.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This is news, of course.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It will help Mr Irving if he knows what he
19does not have to deal with.
20 MR RAMPTON:     He does not have to bother with Professor Eatwell
21or Professor Levin.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     This is news which I am hearing for the first time. We
23have spent many weeks preparing documents for the purpose
24of cross-examination of those two witnesses, and this is
25not the way that a case should be conducted.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it would be helpful if, to the extent

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 1that witnesses are not going to be called, that Mr Irving
 2should be, as it were, the first to hear.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     He is.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In this case that is quite important.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It is a decision that I made, I think probably
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The reasons for it I am certainly not going to go
 9into. I do not have to at all.
11 MR RAMPTON:     What Mr Irving knows, because I think I have told
12him before in open court, my Lord, is this. If there is
13material which in his eyes undermines or affects the
14credibility of witnesses who are not to be called as live
15witnesses, he is entitled to put those materials before
16the court.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You are not telling me anything I do not know, of course.
18I am perfectly entitled to do that under the
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we are trying to be constructive
21about this and I am actually trying to save you some----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I deeply regret this because we have informed the
23defence at every stage which witnesses we are calling and
24which we are not calling.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I have just said to Mr Rampton what you
26heard me say, and I am sure he will let you know if and

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 1when he is abandoning any other witnesses. But if
 2Professor Funke is going to be called, then surely what he
 3has to say, for whatever it may be worth, ought to be put.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship pleases. That is what I said.
 5I might do it in very broad outline only.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a matter for you, but something has
 7to be put to give Mr Irving the opportunity to deal with
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It makes it very difficult for me to put in a rebuttal
10document unless these witnesses are there to put them to,
11which may very well be why they have adopted this tactic.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we see how much of a problem that
13proves to be? I think less than perhaps you think.
14Having cleared the decks in that way, shall we now have
15your Mr Millar? Do you need to speak to him before he
16goes into the box?
17 MR IRVING:     No.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know which file his witness statement is
19in, I am afraid. C4, my Lord, tab 3. < (The witness stood down)
20 < Mr Peter Millar, sworn.
21Examined by Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr Millar, do you have a copy of your witness statement
23with you?
24 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     No I do not.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship will find it in ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got it.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Mr Millar, when was the last time we met?
 2 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Several years ago.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     About eight years ago?
 4 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     About eight years ago, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have not rehearsed today's discussion in any way?
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     In no way at all.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     No way at all. I just take you very rapidly through your
 8witness statement. In the third paragraph you say that
 9the Russian archives were in a very dilapidated building
10and that the filing system extremely archaic. Is that
12 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Absolutely.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In a minute or two I will be taking you through the
14diary which I wrote, one entry, one day's entry,
15concerning our discussion with the Russian archivists. Is
16it correct to say that, as you say in your witness
17statement, no written agreement was made, everything was
18arranged verbally?
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Absolutely.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you turn back to the first page in your witness
21statement, please, at the bottom of that paragraph, "After
22Mr Irving was allowed access, he told me that the boxes of
23microfiches were stored in a very bad condition, in weak
24cardboard boxes, with the individual boxes over filled and
25no kind of special packaging to protect them". Can the
26witness be given a bundle of photographs, five photographs

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 1showing the boxes, or a number of boxes, and a number of
 2microfiches, the glass plates, and a number of photographs
 3made on those microfiches?
 4 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     (Same handed) Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are those the boxes that, as far as you can recall ----
 6 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Indeed, I remember them very well. I remember noticing in
 7particular the contemporary 1940s packaging.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, these were the original 50 year old boxes
 9that the glass plates were still stored in?
10 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Oh, yes, quite clearly.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you gain the impression that the Russian archivists, I
12am going by your statement again, were unfamiliar with the
13concept of outsiders having access to their material?
14I lived in the Soviet Union for three years and Russian
15archivists are completely unused to anyone having access
16to anything.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So a research room is something they are not familiar
19 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     They would not even have ones to cope with.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they facilities for reading these glass plates?
21 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     Not at the time, no.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they had no microfilm reader?
23 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     There was no microfilm reader.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Nothing at all? How did I manage to read them, then, to
25your recollection?
26 A. [Mr Peter Millar]     

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