Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 93

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    That is why you chose the Pakistan instead of somebody
 1else of, say, German ancestry, is it not?.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is unlikely there would be a German checking our
 3passports at Passport Control. I think that probably
 4everyone would draw the line at that.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why do you not say, "What makes me shudder, it is so
 6humiliating, when I get back to London I too often find
 7that the immigration officer is an Australian"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You are manipulating this again. What made me shudder was
 9the placard outside reading, "Kinnock in fresh row with
10Wedgwood Benn" and you know you are back in England again.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It speaks for itself, does it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     He is manipulating again, and trying to tell the public
13gallery that I shuddered at arriving and finding a
14Pakistani checking my passport.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Now, my Lord, I propose to pass from racism ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely the kind of manipulation that I am
17accused of.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I propose to pass from racism -- I have said enough about
19that, I believe -- to Moscow.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we then in at that case please call my witness first?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but just before you do that, I want to
22get something straight. I have got a clip, which
23I suppose consists of, I do not know, 30/40 speeches or
24extracts from the speeches.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems to me that on this aspect of the

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 1case the position is somewhat different. The mere fact
 2you have not cross-examined on these other speeches.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I should have said that.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That does not, it seems to me, mean that they
 5are not part of the case and, Mr Irving, you should be
 6clear that that is the way in which I am approaching this
 7part of the case. Do you follow what I am saying?.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     In other words, you intend to take into account the other
 9ones on which he has not cross-examined?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think that must be right on this part
11of the case, that being the criticism, because you have
12explained very clearly, if I may say so, what your views
13are on the topic of alleged racism.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes or whatever, patriotism.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think I am entitled therefore to look at the totality of
16all this.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well I would have preferred that they would have marked
18those passages in the full text of the speeches.
19 MR RAMPTON:     They are.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They are. That is what has been done, you
21see. I have the full context..
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And that you would have looked at the full text so you
23could have seen the full context.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I would invite your Lordship -- I should have said
25it. I did sort of indicate it when I started, by saying,
26if we went through every single one, we would be here

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 1until Christmas, which we would have been.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wanted to spell it out and have it on the
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I am very grateful. I do urge your Lordship, as
 5far as your Lordship wishes to do, it is entirely a matter
 6for yourself, to read as much of the whole of the speeches
 7as is relevant, which are not necessarily just the
 8passages marked.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have been through quite a lot of it before
10we even started.
11 MR RAMPTON:     That is not excellent. That is really not for my
12sake but for Mr Irving's sake. My Lord, can I say
13something before Mr Millar is called, and tell your
14Lordship our proposal in relation to what I might call
15Mr Irving's right-wing associations. I mean that at the
16moment in a neutral sense. The relevant documents, which
17consist of letters, diary entries, and so on and so forth,
18are spread across 14 files. Cross-examination making
19reference to 14 different files is, we believe, simply not
20practical. What we -- I say "we", I mean Miss Rogers --
21is actually going to do is to produce a single file, as we
22have for Moscow and for Dresden and for this topic that we
23are have been dealing with, which shall have -- this is
24not necessarily written in stone -- but documents
25relating to the IHR, and these will all be the plaintiffs
26documents, sorry Mr Irving's documents, correspondence

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 1with Zundel, correspondence with German right-wing
 2persons, the DVU, somebody called Woch, Kristofferson,
 3Altsans and Karl Philip. Then there will be some diary
 4entries as well relating to all over the world, but they
 5will be in sequence. Whether we divide them up by
 6country, I do not know.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is fine by me. I am anxious that it
 8does not prejudice Mr Irving. I do not think it will,
 9will it, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Once again, as we have frequently seen in the past when
11they have done this kind of selection exercise, they have
12left out sometimes replies which are germane to the issue,
13and they have left out other letters which tend to
14neutralize the effect of the first. And, of course, I am
15also preparing a very extensive selection of extracts from
16the diaries which neutralise their extraction from the
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do know how you want deal with that
19physically because it is a problem. You are perfectly
20entitled, if a document is put to you, to say, well, that
21is fine but you must also have available the reply,
22whatever it may be.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     At present we are intending to come back with our counter
24attack when we have the chance of cross-examining each
25witness concerned, Professor Funke and the others.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the context of this case I think that is

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 1probably a reasonable way of dealing with it.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It makes more sense, but of course it is going to produce
 3a very lopsided effect to start with and I would ask your
 4Lordship to bear that in mind.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     What will also be in the file, my Lord, is the
 6statement of case on this part of the case, which will be
 7cross-referenced to the contents of the file, and also the
 8relevant request for information and Mr Irving's
 9responses. Mr Irving will necessarily and obviously get a
10copy of the file. I hope he will get one before your
11Lordship sees it. If he has any objection to it, aside
12from the fact that he may want your Lordship to see other
13stuff, then no doubt he will say so.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When are you thinking we are going to embark
15on this? We are going get that when? On Monday?
16 MR RAMPTON:     It will be ready by Monday, yes, but at the moment
17my sense of direction if I can use that, tells me that,
18unless your Lordship thinks it right that I should do so,
19or unless we have a change of heart overnight, it may not
20be necessary for me to cross-examine on that topic at all.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is entirely a matter for you.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I know it is. What I am not proposing at the
23moment is that the file should be produced on Monday and
24that I should carry on cross-examining Mr Irving. If,
25when everybody has digested the contents of the file,
26I would have to have your Lordship's permission if

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