Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 93

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    Of whatever colour. It would have made no difference if
 1huge numbers of, shall we say, Slovaks or Poles or people
 2of whatever colour. If you import people, whatever
 3colour, into a country on that massive scale, it
 4introduces social unrest and economic unrest. There is no
 5reference in this passage, what you have read, from which
 6one can deduce that I am referring in that passage only to
 7people of colour, let alone the Jews or anybody else that
 8you are trying to shoehorn into it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not worry about that. We have just seen a reference in
10the Hailsham passage to coloured immigration.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what was happening at that time. Lord Hailsham
12referred specifically in cabinet to the coloured
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Capital C, capital I, Coloured Immigration. Now we are
15going to see exactly what you talking about in the next
16sentence, if you will just let me read it:
17     "Nothing makes me shudder more than two or
18three months, working on a new manuscript, and I arrive
19back at Heathrow Airport - where of course, my passport is
20checked by a Pakistani immigration officer (Laughter).
21Isn't that a humiliation for us English? (Applause)".
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we continue, please, and we will see what makes me
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. We will come to the rest of it in a
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the parenthesis. He has read the parenthesis as

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 1though that is what makes me shudder, and of course that
 2is not what makes me shudder.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You are going to be asked a question about that particular
 4sentence now.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we read the whole sentence in context?
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You can see what comes later in a moment. Just answer
 7Mr Rampton's question first.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     He has paused at the wrong place.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No, Mr Irving. I want to know what is the matter
10with your passport stamp being put, or whatever it is, put
11on by a Pakistani.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Checked by".
13 MR RAMPTON:     Checked by a Pakistani immigration official,
14officer, which caused great laughter amongst the audience
15apparently, or the laughter anyway, and why you should be
16applauded for saying that such an experience is an
17"humiliation for us English"?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, presumably, if he is a Pakistani and he is working
19there, he has less right to check my passport than an
20Englishman who is working there. I would expect an
21Englishman to be better in control of immigration into
22England than somebody who has born outside the country,
23which is why that remark is made.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is as maybe. Mr Rampton's question is
25why is it humiliating?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is bound up in my answer to the question, my Lord,

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 1that I would have expected English people to be checking
 2the immigration. If you go to Germany, you do not have,
 3for example, Jamaicans, or you do not have Kosovans, or
 4you do not have Russians checking the passports going into
 5the country. You expect to have people of the country
 6concerned who are checking the passports of the people
 7going in and specifically at immigration control.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     There might be a problem if you have had an
 9immigration officer newly brought from, let us say, the
10north west provinces of China who did not speak English.
11Beyond that I simply do not understand what you are
12saying, I am afraid.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have explained it relatively well. On the
14balance of probabilities at the time that I am talking
15about, these people have not been born in England. You
16were referring specifically to these people, these people
17that you have referred to. They have not been born in
18England, but they have been granted jobs in the Customs
19and Immigration service, and we find that they are
20checking our right to come back into the country in which
21we have been born, which strikes me as being paradoxical.
22This is what I am trying to convey to the readers.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you have any idea, Mr Irving? I do not, but I can
24easily find out if it is necessary. Do you any idea,
25Mr Irving, how many of the so-called coloured minorities,
26minority peoples, in this country have been born here?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you going to lead evidence on this?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I want to know if you know.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have no idea whatsoever that I can state here on
 4oath, no.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then what is the basis for your remark that on a balance
 6of probabilities that chap at the airport not been born
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I used the phrase "on the balance of
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is your basis for thinking there is a balance of
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Because we know of the rate at which immigration occurred
13within the last ten years, within last 15 years, at the
14time this speech had been, so on the balance of
15probabilities these are recent arrivals, which is why
16I stated that. Now can we have the rest of that
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, by all means.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Nothing makes me shudder more than arriving "and I go
20outside the Terminal building and there is an Evening
21Standard placard saying, 'Kinnock in fresh Wedgwood Benn
22row'". That is what made me shudder. You tried to
23pretend it was a Pakistani immigration official that made
24me shudder. That is what I call manipulation.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, really? Mr Irving, I am afraid I reverse that
26arrow and throw it straight back at you, because it is

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 1exactly what you have just done. What you were telling
 2your audience, which is why you got laughter and applause,
 3is that there was a humiliating experience of having your
 4passport checked by some dreadful little brown man who had
 5no business to be here that made you shudder.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No. It is having it checked by a foreigner that made me
 7shudder. You yourself adduced the fact that he was
 8brown. Pakistanis of course are not necessarily
 9brown. It is perfectly possible to be Pakistani and
10white, but you are the one who has the racist attitude and
11you automatically assume that the Pakistani is brown.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are some, very few we know but, Mr Irving, do
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I know a number of very interesting cases of English
15people who are born in Pakistan and found difficulties
16getting back into England.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, this passage in your speech is all about
18coloured immigrants.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not. It is about immigration, of which the major
20element is coloured immigration, of course, at that time.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and so that is why you chose----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Now of course we have other immigration which is causing
23problems. I would deliver exactly the same speech now
24about immigration from central Europe which is not a
25coloured immigration problem.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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