Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 93

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    I am not sure that the British or English would be very
 1possibly even of racism.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Some of us, Mr Irving ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you calling the English half breeds then?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly, one of your favourite terms, "half breeds".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you called them "mongrels". If I had used the word
 6"mongrel" in my diary, then I would have been the subject
 7of massive obloquy.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Some people, Mr Irving, leaving aside yourself and some of
 9your friends from the Third Reich, do not mind having
10mixed ancestry. Does that baffle you? Do you find that
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have explained to you what my notion of patriotism
13is. Patriotism is pride in the country that has been
14handed down to you by your parents and by their parents
15before them.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will carry on with the text, if I may? There is not
17much more. I should like to think there is somebody
18somewhere doing what Gilbert and Sullivan would have done
19had Mikado do which is making up a little list of named
20people", to be executed is the allusion, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a childish remark, frankly.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, that is right, is it not? Who is childish, me or
24 A. [Mr Irving]     To suggest that a little list, there is a little list of
25people to be executed in some kind of Fourth Reich what
26is, no doubt, what you will have said next.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not suggesting ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That we have democratic processes in this country where
 3lists of people get regularly fired by the electorate,
 4but, unfortunately, we did not know in 1958 that Lord
 5Hailsham had taken this wicked decision.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not suggesting you wanted Lord Hailsham executed,
 7though may be you did ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely the innuendo you placed on that phrase.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But the little list in your book, if you are the Mikado,
10is a list of traitors and the nature of their treachery is
11to allow large numbers of people who are not of pure
12mongrel English stock into this country, is it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely what I did not say. What I did say, he
14is a traitor because he has not had Britain's interests,
15the interests of the British people at heart. He has
16failed to see ahead to the tragedy which massive
17immigration would inflict on this country.
18     This country was existing in a relative state of
19peace. If you ask the family of Steven Laurence, you will
20see the kind of tragedy that has been inflicted on an
21individual scale by massive immigration into a foreign
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So people like the Laurences, rather like your remarks
24about the Jews, have brought it on themselves, is that the
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, really! If this is the level of your advocacy ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what do you mean?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     --- this morning, then perhaps we ought to take a break.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you mean, Mr Irving?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall I spell it out?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, please.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I will repeat what I just said. In the 1950s, Britain was
 7a country at peace. We had defeated a major world power.
 8We were licking our wounds and recovering and, for no
 9perceptible reason, we then through the folly and
10negligence of the government that we had voted into power,
11as we now see, through their total negligence, through
12their ignorance, we inflicted on this country a body wound
13which only began at that time, the kind of wound which has
14led to 100,000 cases of the Stephen Laurence tragedy
15occurring on one level, and it could have been avoided.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Those tragedies ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It was a tragedy inflicted on the immigrants whom we
18imported as slaves, as cheap labour into this country, and
19it was a tragedy on this country.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and the reason why people like Stephen Laurence or
21Stephen Laurence, if you like, was killed was because he
22was black, was it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I think you are absolutely right. Of course, we do not
24know because there has been no formal finding in that
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And who is to blame for the fact that Stephen Laurence was

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 1killed because he was black?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I do not want to sound legalistic, but until there
 3is a proper legal enquiry into the matter and the guilt is
 4apportioned and we find out exactly what happened, it
 5would be wrong to kind of prejudge that issue, but we can
 6talk in theoretical terms and say who is to blame if a
 7black is killed by racist white thugs.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, who is to blame?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The racist white thugs are to blame.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. Now we go on, please: "Even if we
11all pull together jointly and severally for the next 10,
1220, or 30 years and manage to put the clock back, say,
13half an hour of its time, the really", capital G,
14"Guilty", capital P, "People" will have passed on
15commemorated only by the bronze plaques and the statues
16and memorials scattered around our capital. We can go
17around and efface those monuments; but it is going to be
18a damned sight harder to put Britain back where it was.
19I don't think Mrs Thatcher or her like are going to be the
20people to do it. Even less do I think the Socialist Party
21are going to be the people to do it. Nothing makes me --
22Mr David Irving -- shudder ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just explain the phrase Guilty People, why it is in
24capital letters?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have had all that earlier on.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Say what you want to say about it and then we

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 1will come back.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a reference of course to a very famous book by
 3Michael Foot in 1938 about the appeasers.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     In this context it means the politicians who
 5allowed all these black, brown and Jewish people into this
 6country, does it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think we are talking about specific categories of
 8people. We are talking about the appeasers, who have
 9kowtowed to the Buddha of political correctness.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whatever.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     And have ruined their own country in the process.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please. Sometimes your interpretation of your
13own words is, to say the least, bewildering. In this
14context, it must be, must it not, that one of the
15principal guilty people, in fact possibly the most guilty
16because he is traitor number 1, was, for example, Lord
18 A. [Mr Irving]     And cabinet ministers like him, quite clearly. I have
19simply taken him as an example because that record has
20just come into the public domain at that time, but we
21presume that there are others like him, Harold Macmillan
22and others of that ilk.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Anybody who, at the very least, acquiesced in the
24admission to this country of large numbers of immigrants?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Of whatever colour. It would have made no difference if
26they had acquiesced in the immigration into Britain of

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