Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 93

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     You will have heard the word "probably", on the balance of
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I will just finish this, if I may, and then I want to pass
 4to one more. Where was I? "'How do you feel about that
 5then, the black cricketers?' So I said, 'That makes me
 6even more queasy ...' and so he says right, and I say,
 7'No, hang on, it makes me feel queasy but I would like to
 8think we've got white cricketers who are as good as the
 9black ones' and he couldn't climb out of that, you see"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There you are. That is precisely what I just said.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, Mr Irving, but I do not myself see -- perhaps you can
12enlighten me -- why the journalist should have anything to
13climb out of.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Because he was wanting me to express an attitude that the
15blacks are in some way inferior to us. They are different
16from us but not inferior.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Then he says, you see, he has rather not had anything to
18climb out of, he has picked up on what you said, he says:
19"'So what you're advocating then is a kind of race
20hatred'." He was absolutely right, was he not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he obviously had his agenda of questions. He
22probably had them written down on his clipboard in front
23of him, "Ask him about race hatred. Use the word 'race'.
24Keep calling him a racist'. This is the way journalists
25keep their jobs, is it not? They are politically
26correct. They know the questions to ask and nobody fires

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 1them. I have never been politically correct and I am not
 2ashamed of it.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     "So I said, 'Before I answer your questions, would you
 4tell me what you believe in, as a journalist, an
 5Australian journalist. Do you believe in mixing up all
 6God's races into one super, kind of mixed up race? Are
 7you in favour of racial intermarriage and racial mixing?'
 8and he said, 'Well, I believe in multi-culturalism'." Do
 9you believe, Mr Irving, in intermarriage between races, as
10you call it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I have precisely the same attitude about this as the
12Second Defendant does.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tell us what your attitude is.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Tell us what her attitude then is.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, or yours.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I believe in God keeping the races the way he built them.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I see.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     And I will be putting evidence about the Second
19Defendant's position on this in court later on.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Although he is remorselessly ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, although he is remorselessly pursuing his Final
23Solution to kill off all the blacks in Africa?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     In his infinite wisdom.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In his infinite wisdom.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not exactly what I said in the previous diary

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 1passage. That is a total manipulation of that passage.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One more and then we can pass on to Moscow, Mr Irving.
 3There is a tab 3A in this file, K4. Your Lordship will
 4find this, I hope, on page 37A of the clip. This is, I
 5think, the Clarendon Club speech?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My clip does not have a 37A.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It has not got a 37A? It is a very short
 8passage. I have mine at 37A. May I ask your Lordship to
 9use the file which has got a tab 3A -- at least mine has.
10Your Lordship has a 3A tab.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A tab, yes, but not in the clip.
12 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am sorry, that is my fault. I have made my
13own new number?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I say here, of course, that when the tables are turned
15and it is my turn to cross-examine, I shall be putting in
16any amount of evidence which completely refutes the notion
17that I have racist attitudes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a perfectly proper thing to say.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason I say that, of course is ----
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You will have your turn, Mr Irving, of course.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but in the meantime, the world turns and newspapers
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is too complicated for me. I cannot follow
24that. Could you turn to -- this is the Clarendon Club in
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The numbers of the pages are at the top right-hand
 2corner. There are 12 pages in all. Can you turn to page
 39 of 12, please? I am going to read the whole of this.
 4This block in the first half of the page, leaving aside
 5the interesting historical comment in bold type. You say:
 6"Thus, we follow this tangled thread. At the end of the
 7war in 1945, the British Empire was at its greatest ever
 8extent in history. Our armies straddled the globe. We
 9were beginning to get back the territories that we had
10lost in the Far East through Churchill's foolish military
11and naval strategy. And suddenly the Empire went.
12Groping around in the darkness, we look for", capital G,
13"Guilty", capital M, "Men. Partly I think that we must
14blame sins of omission. If we look back from where
15Britain is now, with just a handful of people of true
16English, Irish, Scots and Welsh stock - apprehensive,
17furtively meeting in dinners like this, exchanging our own
18shared sensations and sorrows - then we can see where some
19of the worst errors have been made.
20     "In 1958, for example, we find Lord Hailsham
21saying at a Cabinet meeting, 'I do not think this Coloured
22Immigration is going to be much of a problem in Britain.
23We only have 100,000 of these immigrants so far, and I do
24not think the numbers are likely to grow much beyond
25that! So on chance I am against having any restrictions
26imposed". It might be "on balance", is it?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It should be "on balance", yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it should. Then you close the quote from Lord
 3Hailsham and you say: "Traitor No. 1 to the British
 4cause". What do you mean by that?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Lord Hailsham, these were records that were in 1988 just
 6released from the Public Record Office, Cabinet records,
 7and they reveal Lord Hailsham, who later became a Lord
 8Chancellor, I believe, having said at a Cabinet meeting in
 91958 in a totally negligent manner that he did not think
10that immigration into Britain was going to be a problem
11and that so far only 100,000 had arrived, and he thought
12it would not go to more than that.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And why does that make him a traitor, No. 1 traitor?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Because it is the duty of the custodians of government in
15this country to look ahead and to try to ward off any kind
16of misfortunes and tragedies that may otherwise befall the
17country which is put into their guardianship.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what you are really saying is they have an overriding
19obligation to safeguard the racial purity of the mixed bag
20of mongrels of Anglo Saxons, French, Celts, Irish and
21goodness knows what all that you call "English", is that
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure that the British or English would be very
24flattered by the "mongrels" that you have called them. If
25I were to use language like that, I could be rightly and
26justifiably accused of vilification, of defamation and

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