Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 175

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    One contributing reason -- one contributing reason at this
 1moment in time.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see. I just want to get it clear.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But I also suggest very strongly it may be built into our
 4microchip, as I put it. It may be part of the endemic
 5human xenophobia which exists in all of us and which
 6civilized people like your Lordship and myself manage to
 7suppress, and other people like the gentleman on the
 8Eastern Front with the submachine guns cannot suppress.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, before we proceed any further, I think
10you might be advised to have a look at your own diary, if
11you would not mind?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have had 50 million words of my diaries to look
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Aren't we fortunate?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think discovery on a scale like this contrasts
16very severely with the discovery that your own instructing
17clients have made.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving, good point.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Sarcasm is, perhaps, not called for.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     38, please, Mr Irving -- no, indeed not, when you look at
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     38?
23 MR RAMPTON:     38 of tab 10 of the bundle K4, my Lord. It is
24page 36 of the extract bundle. This is Irving speaking to
25Irving. This is not Irving punting some thesis about
26Jewish culpability to the television audience. I want you

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 1to look at the last part of the entry for September 17th
 21994 which was a Saturday.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking at the wrong page.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 38 of the bundle, tab 10.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 10?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of K4?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it in your ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- selection?
10 MR RAMPTON:     This is a typed or printed page.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Some of it has underlines and italics?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The underlinings are not from me.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "A quiet evening at home", etc, "Jessica", who is Jessica?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My little infant child.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     At this time she was nine months old at this time.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nine months old in September 1994. "Jessica is turning
19into a fine little lady. She sits very upright on an
20ordinary chair. Her strong back muscles, a product of our
21regular walks in my arms to the bank, etc., I am sure. On
22those walks we sing the binkety-bankety-bong song. There
23are two other poems in which she stars: 'My name is baby
24Jessica. I have got a pretty dressica, but now it is in a
25messica' and, more scurrilously, when half breed children
26are wheeled past" and then you go into italics, "'I am a

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 1baby Aryan, not Jewish or sectarian. I have no plans to
 2marry an ape or a Rastafarian"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Racist, Mr Irving? Anti-Semitic Mr Irving, yes?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Teaching your little child this kind of poison?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you think that a nine month old can understand words
 8spoken in English or any other language?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will tell you something, Mr Irving, when I was
10six-months old, I said, "Pussy sits in the apple tree
11until she thinks it is time for tea"?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You were very precocious!
13 MR RAMPTON:     I was, but then I burned out at two!
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Perhaps I should set this in its context. The
15scurrilous magazine "Searchlight" (about which we will, no
16doubt, hear more) had just published a photograph of
17myself and Jessica and her mother, who is very blond and
18very beautiful, and it had sneered at us as being the
19"perfect Aryan family".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They did not write this, you did?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but this is my little private response to this rather
22nasty sneer ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You wrote this on 17th September.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Please do not interrupt me. This is my private response
25to this rather nasty smear by this magazine which has been
26giving me trouble ever since I had the man arrested for

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 1breaking into my house 30 years earlier when he called my
 2family a "perfect Aryan family" in a public magazine. So
 3I sit with my infant child on my lap, humming a little
 4song to her about us being a perfect Aryan. Do any other
 5words upset you?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Do any other words in the poem upset you apart from the
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. It is the contrast. The poor little child has
10been taught a racist ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Poor little child! She is a very happy child.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- ditty by her perverted racist father.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever read Edward Lear or Hilliard Belloch?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They have not brought a libel action complaining of being
15called a racist, Mr Irving. You have ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know if they have brought libel actions or not.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you sued because you said we called you a
18racist and an extremist?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I am not a racist.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, look at the words on the page.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, are you accusing me of racism, in other words,
22looking down on ethnic minorities?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, how is it behind you in the entire four weeks we
25have been here today I have not seen a single coloured
26member on the team behind you, when I have employed

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 1coloured people of ethnic minorities on my staff and, so
 2far as I can see, not you or your instructing solicitor
 3have employed one such person.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now, shall we have a little pause? I do not
 5think that is a very helpful intervention.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is very important to say that. It is the point
 7where hypocrisy begins and dudgeon ends.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, you are condemned out of your own
 9mouth, you see. That is the trouble.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am condemned by what I say and you are condemned
11by what I see. Not once have you had a member of the
12ethnic minority working on your side.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I just suggested that was not a
14very helpful intervention. Do not just repeat it.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I expect you are hoping the newspaper reporters
16are going to write it down, are you not, Mr Irving?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not place much trust in the newspaper reporters. I
18can recognize hypocrisy when I see it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us go back in this same tab of the file to a diary
20entry for 10th November. That is a long way back. If you
21want to turn to page 17, you are in South Africa,
22Johannesburg, on November 10th 1987?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 17 of your extracts.
24 MR RAMPTON:     No, my Lord, I am trying to avoid accusations of

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