Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 175

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will read the next passage, Mr Irving.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot find the reference. K4, tab 10,
 3page 60.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     At 1.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a typical example of something being taken out of
 6context and the word "explicable" being changed into
 7"justifiable". This is a typical manipulation.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you say so, Mr Irving. It is going to get worse, I am
 9afraid. Can we read the next passage? This is rather a
10long passage so perhaps you would like to have a look?
11This is taken from your interview with Errol Morris on 8th
12November 1998.
13     My Lord, the passage in the file is at page 60
14of tab 10. 60 is written in the round circle. It is at
15the bottom of the left-hand column of page 22 of the
16action report.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this your second one?
18 MR RAMPTON:     No, that is first one your Lordship was asking
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I did find it. I am sorry. I have it
22 MR RAMPTON:     This comes from, if you want the reference,
23Mr Irving, pages 25 to 27.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it. I have the full text in front of me. Once
25again you left off the opening passage which explains what
26I am saying.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which opening passage?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You begun half way down the paragraph of what I said.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read the whole thing if it bothers you.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I have just read the opening part
 5of that paragraph. It makes no difference at all to what
 6is relied on, I do not think, does it?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     No, what I am saying is if somebody calls me a liar, which
 8frequently happens, especially in this courtroom, even
 9when I am on oath, I shrug my shoulders.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And then you contrast that with the Jewish reaction?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     And I contrast that with the sensitivity of the Jewish
12community. When they are called liars, then suddenly all
13the force and majesty of the law is called in and you are
14invited to go before the Magistrate and all the rest of
15it, and this generates anti-Semitism, in my view.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Well, Mr Irving, I am going look at something
17which I suggest is a massive exercise in the generation of
18anti-Semitism. It is you speaking at line 39 on page 25
19of the file.
20     You see: "It is certainly is inexcusable.
21Every country, every people, particularly the Jewish
22people, I think are robust enough to survive the knocks,
23to survive the insults, to survive the impugning of their
24integrity". So far so good.
25     "If somebody says to me, 'David Irving, I think
26you are a liar', I shrug my shoulders and say, 'So, so

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 1what? You are entitled to your opinion'. But if somebody
 2says to the Jewish community, 'Jewish community, we think
 3you are a liar', suddenly the jail doors are swung open
 4and people say, 'This way, come on, you have called them a
 5liar'" ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Like Karl Philip, for example, fined 3,000 deutschemarks
 7for some utterance. That is precisely the example, and
 8that generates anti-Semitism, in my view.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "... and this I think does harm to the Jewish people
10in the long run because the non-Jewish people will say,
11'What is it about these people?' Irving: I am deeply
12concerned about this and I have said this to people
13like Daniel Goldhagen who I challenged to the debate at a
14meeting in New Orleans a few months ago. I said, 'You
15have written a book called Hitler's Willing Executioners.
16You have talked to us this evening at great length about
17who pulled the trigger, but the question which would
18concern me if I was a Jew is not who'" ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     "If I were a Jew".
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "'pulled the trigger, but why? Why are we disliked?
21Is it something we are doing? I am disliked. Dave Irving
22is disliked. I know that because of the books I write.
23I could be instantly disliked by writing. I could become
24instantly liked by writing other books. You people'", by
25which, of course, you mean the Jews, "'are disliked on a
26global scale. You have been disliked for 3,0000 years and

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 1yet you never to seem to ask what is at the root'",
 2misspelt, "'of this dislike. You pretend that you are not
 3disliked but you are disliked. No sooner do you arrive as
 4a people in a new country, then within 50 years you are
 5already being disliked all over again. Now what is it?
 6And I do not know the answer to this. Is it built into
 7our microchip? When a people arrive who call themselves
 8the Jews, you will dislike them? Is there something in
 9our microchip? Is it in our microchip that we do not like
10the way they look? Is it envy because they are more
11successful than us? I do not know the answer, but if
12I was a Jew, I would want to know what the reason is why
13I am being disliked, and not just disliked in a kind of
14nudge, nudge, wink, wink, he is not very nice kind of sort
15of way, but we are being disliked on a visceral, gut
16wrenching, murderous level, that no sooner do we arrive
17than we are being massacred and beaten and brutalized and
18imprisoned until we have to move on somewhere else. What
19is the reason? I would want to know the answer to that,
20and nobody carries out an investigation about that".
21     Then I have to go on: "(Interviewer) What would
22you say the reason is? (Irving) I am just looking at this
23as an outsider; I come from Mars and I would say they are
24clever people. I am a racist, I would say they are a
25clever race. I would say that, as a race, they are better
26at making money than I am". That is a racist remark, of

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 1course, Mr Irving. It is worthy of Dr Joseph Goebbels, is
 2it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Now then, you are taking words here and you are putting
 4your own intonation on them: "If I am a racist, then
 5I would say these things, I say things in a racist kind of
 6way -- there are better people than us, they play the
 7violin better, they make money better than us and this
 8would generate my envy".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "But they appear to be better at making money", you repeat
10yourself, "than I am".
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, I am putting myself in a position of the
12critics. I am trying to find reasons why people are
13anti-Semetic. I am talking here to a television
14interviewer. We are investigating the reasons why people
15may become anti-Semetic in my own rather clumsy and
16incoherent way. We are trying to find what makes people
17anti-Semetic. Is it because the Jews are better than us?
18Is it because they play the violin or the piano better
19than us, better at making money than us or is there
20something built into our microchip?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I think this is a very coherent expression of the whole
23anti-Semitic tragedy, that nobody knows what it is that
24makes people dislike foreigners, the xenophobia that is
25inside every human being.

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