Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 175

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    You did, and your Lordship has three things.
 1happened is that for ease of reference and to make
 2everybody's life simple, we have extracted those passages
 3on which we rely. It is as simple as that.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And that is that, is it?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     And that is that. This is going to be a long job
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, let us see how we proceed, my Lord, is probably the
 8answer, but I have waved a little red flag.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you find yourself in difficulties, then
10just say so.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not the difficulties, my Lord, it is the little
12catalogue of excerpts, the manipulation that is going on,
13that concerns me.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, let us wait and see whether that is right or wrong.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     If I were to do this with my books, I would be in deep
16trouble and justifiably so.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Can I start on the first page of the text of this,
18please, under the heading "Anti-Semitism, the Holocaust",
19subheading -- these are our headings, I hasten to add, not
20yours. "Jewish responsibility for anti-Semitism pogroms,
22     On 12th July 1997, your action report, "A
23Radical's Diary" is recorded as having expressed this
24thought ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     What page are we on?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 3 at the bottom of the page. Every single one

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 1of these passages is referenced. Top of the page, I think
 2it has a 11/A in square brackets.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     What bundle am I supposed to be looking at?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This little one, I think.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It is a small quote. Some of them, I am afraid,
 6are much longer. If you would not mind looking at the
 7little bundle?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure he has it. Have you got this,
 9Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so.
11 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, Mr Irving was given one.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was he? Anyway, he has another one.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I strongly object to this kind of excerpting. You are
14taking a sentence out of, I do not know what, a long
15article or a speech or something.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can look at them. We have them here. But
17let Mr Rampton ask his question and then we will look at
18the context.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, can I suggest that every time you think
20we have tried to distort the record ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "Manipulate" is the word I used.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, great, "manipulate the record" -- I must remember
23that -- for the purposes of presenting a skewed picture to
24the court, please mark beside whichever quote I refer to
25"check" because then when you reexamine yourself you can
26show his Lordship how bad our manipulation has been.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask that each time we open the full speech first and
 2then find what you are taking the excerpt from?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Evans, but what we can do is have
 4Mr Rampton ask his question and if part of your answer is,
 5"Oh, well, you have taken it out of context, then we will
 6look". I think that is the right way of proceeding.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     But you have plenty of time to check whether we
 8have taken it out of context, Mr Irving. The full
 9speeches are in those two files.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is going to be a very long procedure.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Let us make a start.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but I would rather you did not do it. Let me
13say this, I take it that every single extract that I ask
14you about you will preface your answer (and so let us take
15it as pregnant preface) with the answer, "Ah, yes, but
16you must look at the context", all right? Can we proceed
17on that basis because if you reply in that way every
18single time, we really are going to be here until the cows
19come home.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I am bound to say -- I am sorry,
21this debate is going on and on -- I do think if he says in
22relation to any of your questions, "Well, yes, that is
23what I said but look at what I said immediately
24afterwards", he must be entitled to make that part of his
25answer to you.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Of course, if he wishes to do so.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, right.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Let me take the first one on this page 3, may I,
 3Mr Irving? This is your action report No. 12, I think, of
 4July 1997. The reference is given if you want to look at
 5it. "Why are they [the Jews] so blind that they cannot
 6see the linkage between cause and effect? They protest,
 7what, us? when people accuse them of international
 8conspiracy. They clamour, 'Ours, ours, ours' when hoards
 9of gold are uncovered and then when anti-Semitism
10increases and the inevitable mindless pogroms occur, they
11ask with genuine surprise, why us?"
12     Mr Irving, is that a fair quote in the context
13from ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I read the two paragraphs before that?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, please do.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     To set it in context: "Three hours work today on
17discovery", that is for this action two years ago already,
18"compiling exhaustive files for my papers for my libel
19actions, my archive files on the Judenfrage, the Jewish
20problem. Depressing.
21     "There is an item in today's Jewish Chronicle
22which reports that, according to a study by the University
23of Tel Aviv, anti-Semitic incidents everywhere are on the
24decline. There has been an 8.1 per cent decline in
25Britain over the 12 month period to the end of 1996.
26     "There are two significant exceptions, however.

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 1An increase in anti-Semitic propaganda in Switzerland
 2during 1996 was generated by 'Jewish claims for the return
 3of money and of the property of Holocaust victims or their
 4heirs'. The other exception is Australia 'where there was
 5a 12 per cent rise over the previous year'."
 6     I then continue with the passage that you have
 7put before his Lordship which is the conclusion to be
 8drawn from this fact, that in Australia -- "In fact,
 9Australia today is on fire about me again, about my not
10being allowed into the country. The Prime Minister of
11Australia this morning has criticised me. This kind of
12thing generates the anti-Semitism in countries", and this
13is precisely what this is about.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not see anything in what I have just read which
15might account for the Australians' unwillingness to have
16you on their shores?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, this is saying cause and effect. Why is
18there increasing anti-Semitism in Switzerland today when
19it is going down everywhere else in the world? Answer, we
20know why. Why is there anti-Semitism today in Australia
21today? Answer, we know why.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you are adopting it, are you not? You are saying the
23anti-Semitism is justified on account of the fact that the
24Jews are greedy?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Did I say justified or explicable? Is there a subtle
26difference there, do you think?

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