Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 175

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I may have dipped into it. I may have looked at the
 2photographs or looked to see what his sources were.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do we understand when on page 281 of your Dresden
 41995 edition, at footnote 10, you tell us that Bergander
 5-- this is about the ACK-ACK gunners, saying that
 6Bergander was one of them -- then you say this:
 7"Bergander subsequently published his own well researched
 8account of the raids, Dresden, in Luftrieg, Cologne and
 9Vienna 1977"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you had not read it, how do you know it was well
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Because he asked me to help him with the research. That
14is why it was well researched. He is a very good friend
15of mine. He asked me where he should go to, what
16archives. He got all my archives. I give him 8,000 pages
17of my paper. It was a well researched book he wrote. He
18went beyond what I had done and did further research as I
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it unreasonable for me to suggest on the basis of this
21morning's discussions, Mr Irving, that everything you do
22not like is either a forgery or you have never seen it
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you put to me specific example of books and said,
25"Have you read this?" to which my answer has always been
26accurately on oath, "No, I have not read it". We have

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 1looked at two documents today in detail, one of which is
 2the crematorium capacity document which I insist is not
 3genuine, and nothing that I heard this morning has changed
 4my mind on that, and that is the only document I intend
 5impugning in this entire legal action. We have looked at
 6another document now ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have just been having a go at the Muller order of 1st
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is because I have seen it for the first time,
10and every time I look at a document for the first time, my
11first instinct, particularly when it is not an original,
12but a Gestatnat duplicated copy which comes from an
13uncertain provenance with no kind of markings whatsoever,
14is it say, "Hello, what is this then?" If my eye
15immediately alights on German words that have been spelt
16wrong and, as I say, are neither fish nor foul, then that
17makes me slightly more nervous about it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you backed off that in relation to the
19Muller document, did you not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not want to waste the court's time, my Lord.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, do not worry about that.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I appreciate your Lordship's impatience when I start
23looking at documents in detail.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, no, I am not in the least bit impatient. I am
25interested to know.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the reason why I backed off it, my Lord, is because

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 1I accepted that Hitler knew about these actions and there
 2not much point going into that one.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I now pass on to something rather more
 4central which is Mr Irving's utterances on the subject of
 5Jews, blacks, etc. etc., both public and private.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Are we not dealing with Dr Goebbels today then? The
 7Goebbels diaries?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What has Goebbels got to do with it?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, the Goebbels diaries. I think the
10answer is yes if we have time.
11 MR RAMPTON:     We will get to Moscow along down the road if we
12have time.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we have my witness coming tomorrow, Mr Peter Millar.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is fine. I do not mind. You can interpose him if
15I have not finished. I am not troubled about that.
16I will certainly finish tomorrow to make room for
17Professor Browning on Monday.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, may I enquire when these bundles
19that have just been handed up were generated, as it were?
20 MR RAMPTON:     I think they came into court at about 29 minutes
21past 10.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have they caused you a problem, Mr Irving,
23these new bundles?
24 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, they are not new.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I appreciate that they are somewhere in some
26bundle, but I am just asking Mr Irving if he has found it

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 1a problem dealing with two new bundles.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, are they new? To what degree are they new?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think the documents are not new in
 4the sense that they are probably in one of the other
 5files, but I am concerned that you are being presented
 6with newly arranged documents and that may cause you a
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, my concern is not being presented with the big
 9bundles. I am very concerned about these little
10catalogues of excerpts that they are presenting your
11Lordship with, which appear to look to me not so much like
12case management as case manipulation.
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is perfectly all right, Mr Irving. Everybody
14has the full text. You are perfectly free to refer to the
15full text or ask the judge to read the full text if you
16should be suspicious.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we had not -- Mr Irving, please -- had done this bundle
19of extracts, we shall be here until next Christmas.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but we have seen the kind of policy that the Defence
21uses when it makes their extracts and excerpts. There is
22one passage by Professor Evans where "..." stands for 86
23words and four sentences and three full stops and two or
24three semicolons.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, as we go through, Mr Irving, will you
26say when you think the context ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is very difficult ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- puts a different gloss on what you are recorded as
 3having said.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult just on the basis of the catalogue
 5that they are going to leave your Lordship with.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not yet digested what I am being
 7presented with because I have not seen these.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     What your Lordship is being presented with is, in
 9effect, our selection of those passages all from
10Mr Irving's own documents and his own words -- nobody
11else's words, just his own words -- of those passages
12which best represent -- they are by no means exhaustive --
13what we say is Mr Irving's underlying frame of mind. This
14is the only neat way we could think of doing it without
15scuttling about from one file to another and from one page
16within the file to another.
17     Mr Irving is a very wordy person and many of
18these transcripts are very long.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I did ask at an earlier stage for a
20marked up version and I have now got that.
21 MR RAMPTON:     You did, and your Lordship has three things.
22First of all, the original unvarnished speeches, etc. etc.
23in the various D files. Then your Lordship has what your
24Lordship first asked for which is a marked up copy of the
25important passages in those files, but those have now been
26transferred into the other two files. Finally, what has

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