Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 175

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    Do not start brow beating me about the figures. I have
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we need to go back, Mr Irving, to see what you actually
 3said, we will, but that is not the point. You denied ever
 4having seen that document before?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you have a copy of the book in which this document is
 7actually printed?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     And?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you interested in this period of history or not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not interested in that aspect of the history, no.
11I am interested in Adolf Hitler's personal role in
12decisions taken during World War II.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you do not think the question whether or not these
14gassings and shootings in the East were large scale and
15systematic has anything to do with Hitler's role, is that
16is right?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I do not know if you have ever written a book
18in your life. You probably have.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As a matter of fact, I have.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had this before, yes.
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is a very small book and not a very good one,
22but it does exist, yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I can believe that.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Come on, it is ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     But the time comes when you have ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- degenerating.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that was well deserved modesty on his part. The
 2time when you are writing a book when you have to decide
 3what to leave in and what to keep out if the book is not
 4going to be 2,000 pages long with 8,000 pages of sludge in
 5the middle. If you are writing a book about Adolf
 6Hitler's command of the war and his command decisions,
 7then really what happens in detail, the crimes committed
 8by these gangs of gangsters on the Eastern Front, you have
 9to decide to leave the detail out otherwise your readers
10will not see the wood for the trees.
11 MR RAMPTON:     So we have now two books in your possession, one
12was sent to you by the kindly -- is he Professor Fleming?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think he probably sent it to me himself. Yes, I think
14he actually dedicated it to me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And one which either somebody sent you, you certainly
16would not have bought a book by the mass murderer
17Mr Koegon?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what surprises me. You say it is in my book shelf
19and I am sure nobody planted it there, but ----
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is in your discovery, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     But, for the life of me, I never knew I had that book in
22my book shelf.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we just go back to Professor Fleming's
24book for a while? Correct me if have this wrong,
25Mr Irving, you are saying that what you said at IHR press
26conference was derived from the reviews, not from your

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 1reading of the book. One of the things that you said was
 2that Professor Fleming is given to citing second and
 3third-hand documents?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So your evidence is that that also would have come from
 6one or other of those two reviews?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, and from the fact that he and I were in almost daily
 8correspondence at that time and also on the telephone, he
 9would be constantly on the telephone to me, telling me
10about his latest discoveries and latest finds and what he
11was doing and what he was writing.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I thought your evidence earlier on was that what you had
13said came from the reviews.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, and from the reviews, yes, but you asked me, my
15Lord, if I have understood correctly, whether my statement
16to the IHR was based only on the reviews, and I was saying
17that those and the personal communications I had with him
18on a daily basis and, indeed, a very, very thick file of
19correspondence with him indeed, mostly handwritten on his
21 MR RAMPTON:     There is one more book I am going to ask you
22about, Mr Irving. Do not take it from my silence that
23I accept a word of what you say. The coincidence is too
24great, if I may say so. There is another book. Do you
25remember Gertz Bergander's book about Dresden?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us yesterday you have never read that either, did
 2you not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Certainly I never read it from cover to cover, no.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I asked you twice.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I asked you, "Have you read this 1977 book of his?"
 7Answer,"No, I have not".
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I enquire what you mean by "read"? Do you mean
 9sitting down and opening at page 1 and reading through or
10dipping into it to look for a fact or item?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The context was that you had not read it in such a way as
12to be able to evaluate the figures he gave.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I want to be precise about the answer I give here, so I
14know what you mean by "read".
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You actually interrupted a question -- not for the first
16time -- that I was asking. I will read the whole
17passage. My Lord ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page.
19 MR RAMPTON:     --- page 75 of yesterday's transcript, line 9.
20"If you turn to page 11", my Lord, I said, "of the
21table", that is Miss Rogers' table, "it says, basing
22herself on Professor Evans ... this: '1977, the real TB
2347 comes to light. It is discovered by Bergander who
24found a reservist Ehrlich who had a copy cited at page 261
25of Bergander. Evans describes Bergander as the most
26authoritative work', and so on". Then I turn to

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 1Mr Irving:"I dare say if you have not read Bergander,
 2Mr Irving ... you will not be conscious of" ---- And you
 3interrupted, Mr Irving, and said this: "Well, Gutz
 4Bergander was a very good friend of mine -- he still is a
 5very good friend of mine". Question: "Have you read this
 61977 book of his?" "I have not, no."
 7     Then, my Lord, on page 178 also in yesterday's
 8transcript: Question: "Look at Bergander's book. Have
 9you not read that?" Answer: "No".
10 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a reference to the Order of the Day, the
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that was the page you ----
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     35,000 was the question.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then you said: "I know Bergander very well as a human
17being and I respect him as a friend and he is a jolly
18decent chap, but I do not put his book in the same
19category I put Reichart's book having read Reichart book".
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I assume that I had read Reichart's book at that time,
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, was it true or not -- people make mistakes; you might
23have forgotten -- when you told me that you had not read
24Bergander's book?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have never read Bergander's book.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have never read it?

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