Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 175

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    Then you say this. I have not been able to edit it
 1television audience.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I am failing to answer a question, am I?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, you are.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yet again.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because you were asked the question, what do you think of
 6the book?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I probably did not want to admit that I had not read
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The reviewers admit in reviewing his book that he has not
10found the evidence that I am wrong, that he has not found
11documentary proof.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is exactly what I just said 17 years later. My
13memory is not all that bad.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "His book in fact is a lie"?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How on earth can you say that about a book you have not
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I have read the reviews. The book was written as an
19attempt -- the book has been written specifically, it says
20in the introduction, this is an attempt to answer David
21Irving. The whole reason he wrote the book was to answer
22my book "Hitler's War". I read the reviews by Tom Bower
23and numerous other people and they say this book has
24failed to refute David Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am going to come back to what
26seems to be perhaps more important. I had the impression,

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 1and it is a long time ago now that we had evidence about
 2it, that you accepted that Hitler was kept informed about
 3the shootings by the Einsatzgruppen?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right, my Lord. Certainly as far as
 5the Russians Jews were concerned, and the non-German Jews
 6were concerned.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am on the question whether Mr Irving
 8was telling the truth when he said first time around that
 9he had never seen this document.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I can tell you I have never seen this document before in
11my life.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, laughing will not help. I am going to read on
13what you said at this IHR conference shortly after the
14book was published. "The book is a lie because the book's
15title is 'Hitler and the Final Solution' when underneath
16is a subtitle in quotes, 'it is the Fuhrer's wish...'".
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the Fuhrer's order, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "As though this is from some document. In fact it is
19not. This is just what some Nazi big wig after the war,
20sweating and pleading for his life in the dock at
21Nuremberg or somewhere else, tried to claim that it was
22the Fuhrer's wish that this should be done. This is
23precisely the kind of evidence which I am not prepared to
24accept. It is a well-written book. He has done a lot of
25research but he constantly mixes first, second and third
26order evidence in a completely reprehensible way".

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not read the book?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     This is precisely what the reviewer said. Actually,
 4exactly what the reviewer said about the book. I can
 5produce to you tomorrow the reviews by Tom Bauer and
 6Gordon Craig and the other reviewers of the Gerald
 7Flemming book.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, was there in your discovery ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     And also in correspondent with me he told me what he was
10going to base his subtitle on, namely a particular
11statement by a particular General. Every time he found a
12new document, he would write me a triumphant letter.
13I remember that one particularly.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, was there in your third supplemental list of
15documents two editions, one in German -- no, sorry, an
16edition of a German book by a man called Koegon and
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Eugene Koegon, yes -- a murderer.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you know that its German edition is called "National
20Sozialistische Massentugenturm Durch Giftgas"?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. Koegon is on the United Nations "Wanted"
22list for mass murder.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the point of that remark?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am just trying to, shall we say, equalify the
25author of this work so that you know what kind of
26credentials he has.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not interested in the very least in Mr Koegon's
 2credentials. He has not brought an action for damages for
 3libel against my clients.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, just in case you rely on anything Mr Koegon wrote.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Have you a copy of the English edition published in
 6New Haven in 1993?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know offhand, probably not.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has been disclosed in your supplemental list of
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, then, it is probably on my book shelf, yes.
11I certainly would not have purchased it. Somebody must
12have handed it to me.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You what?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not have purchased it. Somebody must have sent it
15to me.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You would not have purchased it? So that is another book
17you will never have read?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mean you will not have read it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Highly unlikely that I would have read it and I can say
21for certain I have not read his book.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, it contains printed out in full -- if you are
23interested in this subject, of course ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- what the people were doing to the Jews in that part of
26Eastern Europe during 1941, '42 and'43, if you are

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 1interested in that subject, it contains printed out in
 2full the RSHA letter of 5th June 1942 which recites that
 3they have managed to process 97,000 people in gas vans at
 4Chelmo. Do you remember that document?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the incredible -- 97,000 people in how many weeks,
 6five weeks?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Five weeks.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is approximately 40 people her hour per van.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You accepted it. I am not going back to that, Mr Irving.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we are going to be questioning your experts about
11those figures when the time comes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You may do whatever you like with my experts ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I remember the document clearly.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Provided, Mr Irving, you let them finish their answers.
15Mr Irving, that document, you accepted when I was
16cross-examining you earlier in this case ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a genuine document.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and you accepted that it showed that, so far from
19being an experiment on a small scale, this was a
20systematic and large scale operation?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we are going to be looking at the figures later on,
22as I say.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you have already accepted that.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Do not start brow beating me about the figures. I have
25accepted the document is genuine, but we are going to be
26looking at the figures when your experts are standing

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