Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 175

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I think for the purpose of today I will accept that it is
 2genuine, but it has these blemishes to which I may refer
 3later on. But to suggest that I have seen this document
 4before is inaccurate and untrue.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I have not said that yet, Mr Irving.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     You said "so you say" and the record shows that.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do say "so you say" because I doubt your answer, and
 8I will tell you precisely now why I doubt it, as I always
 9do, because I am not allowed to make that suggestion
10unless I have a basis for doing so. It has been in Gerald
11Fleming's book "Hitler und die endlosung" ever since
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not read that book.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have not read that book?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been sent to me twice by Gerald Fleming, once in
16English and once in German, and I have not read that book.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you not interested in books which contain references
18to documents which focus on your very field of historical
19activity, that is to say the connection between Adolf
20Hitler and the endlosung?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason why is because Gerald Fleming and I had a very
22lively correspondence and he was constantly sending me
23copies of his latest documents. It is was unlikely there
24were going to be documents in the book which he had not
25already sent me months earlier.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us near the beginning of the case that Gerald

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 1Fleming has done some very good work on one particular
 2episode, not this. That was Bruns and Altemeyer.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes he corresponded with me about it. You have seen my
 4entire file of correspondence with Gerald Fleming and you
 5know exactly how detailed that correspondence is. It is
 6about 4 inches thick.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you possess a copy of "Hitler und die endlosung"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, two copies.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you have never looked at them?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I may have looked for a specific document in it. I seem
11to remember looking to see -- that is right. When I wrote
12my web site page on General Bruns, I checked up on the
13spellings of the names and the correct identification of
14Altemeyer and people like that, and I used it as a
15reference work. I looked in the index, in other words,
16for Bruns and Altemeyer and got the data out of that, one
17or other of the editions.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How much time have you spent in the Munich archive, the
19IFZ if that is what it is?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Until I was banned in 1993? I was there from 1963 for 30
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If Gerald Fleming found it in the Munich archive before
23his book was published while he was writing it, it was
24published in 1982 and you spent time in that archive,
25I know not how many days or hours or weeks, looking for
26documents about Hitler. Do you expect us to believe that

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 1you did not come across this document?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Both. I looked for documents back in 1964 and 1965 and
 3I hired a lady whose name almost certainly will be
 4mentioned later on in today's hearing to do the research
 5for me, to re-research the files for me, looking for
 6material on Adolf Hitler and the final solution, and
 7certainly neither of us came across that document.
 8However, your researchers could have established if I saw
 9that particular file, because the IFZ keeps a detailed log
10of who sees each file, just as the Public Record Office
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Down the line that may happen, Mr Irving. Now I want to
13turn to another document, which I find even more puzzling,
14if I may say so.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     You are implying that the IFZ has a record of my having
16seen that document, which is untrue.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not implying that at all. I have absolutely no
18idea. All I would say, if you want me----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That was the innuendo of "down the line this may happen",
20was it not?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It may do if we look. That is all that means. All I will
22say at the moment, if you want me comment, is this, that
23I do not find your answer very convincing. But that is
24not my task, it is his Lordship's task.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry I do not convince you but it is your duty to
26come forward with plausible evidence to the court that I

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 1am lying, and you cannot because I have not seen this
 2document before.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have two copies of Gerald Fleming's book.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I have two copies of Fleming's book, one in German and one
 5in English.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write about Hitler and his connection with the
 7endlosung. You spent hours in the Munich archive and this
 8is a key document which you have missed.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I read the reviews by Tom Bower and by Gordon Craig of
10Gerald Fleming's book. Tom Bower said that Gerald Fleming
11has failed to destroy David Irving's central hypothesis,
12and Gordon Craig said exactly the same. That being so,
13why should I waste my time reading that book, apart from
14looking up specific references, because undoubtedly
15Fleming has done very detailed research, but I am not a
16Holocaust historian. If I was writing a book about the
17Holocaust, then no doubt I would consult Fleming.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This does not really go to the Holocaust,
19does it? It goes to Hitler's knowledge of the shooting by
20the Einsatzgruppen.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I can only repeat that my attention was never
22drawn to this document, I never saw it in that book, there
23is no reason why I should have done.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has not yet been established there is any
25evidence you actually saw this although I think the
26evidence does suggest you had an opportunity to find it.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I make it quite clear I shall invite----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I had an opportunity to find very large numbers of
 3documents, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a different thing, I accept that.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     But I am very well known for not consulting other people's
 6books. If Gerald Fleming had sent me the document as a
 7copy, which I would have expected him to have done, then
 8I would of course have taken it into account.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I am a little bit at sea, Mr Irving,
10because this has only just been brought to my attention.
11You were asked some questions in an IHR conference on 4th
12September 1983 -- I am telling you this as a fact because
13I have the printed version in front of me -- and the
14question was: Could you give your reaction to the recent
15book by Gerald Fleming, "Hitler und die endlosung", so we
16are talking about the same thing, are we not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then you say this. I have not been able to edit it
19because I have only just been shown it. "Yes, Gerald
20Fleming, frightfully nice, he and I were face to face once
21on the David Frost programme" -- again it does not seem
22to be much of an answer to the question -- "for an hour
23and a half in England on television. He was not able to
24prove me wrong then. He has ever since felt mortally
25wounded by the fact that he was not able to prove me wrong
26in front of" -- goodness me, this is all about the

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