Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 175

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    Certainly. I will try to find them. I have seven copies
 1of it here, if you would like to have this.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Being a suspicious bloke, I like to see the chapter and
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This is dated October 7th 1992 and there are seven copies
 5of it which I did at 4 o'clock this morning.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, what I am going to do now is refer to three
 7documents -- they are different documents -- which Mr
 8Irving told us in evidence that he had never seen. The
 9first one is the letter from Muller, the head of the
10Gestapo, the order rather, to the Einsatzgruppen, all four
11of them, of 1st August 1941, which says, in effect, that
12the Fuhrer will be getting continuous reports about the
13work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is it, just in case it is necessary to
15look at it?
16 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, it is in Professor Browning's documents.
17It is referred to by him.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will do.
19 MR RAMPTON:     On page 7 of his report. I think my memory is
20that he has written it out in translation. Unfortunately,
21I do not have it here. It is actually in H4 (ii).
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that, unless Mr Irving wants it dug
23out, this will probably do.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I have given a sort of a translation.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not normally very picky, my Lord, but in this
26particular case it would be nice sometime to see the

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 1original or a facsimile of it.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I agree. I do believe that Mr Irving should be
 3given H4 (ii). That is actually Dr Longerich's documents
 4but it is the same document.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a document from the Russian archives?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and it is the first sentence of the writing which
 7I am interested in. It is footnote 143, in handwriting at
 8the bottom right hand corner of the page. Do you see it?
 9It is a copy.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says so. Did I more or less translate the first
12sentence correctly?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh dear. I can only say "oh dear" about this document.
14Where does it come from?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can tell you that, Mr Irving. It has been available in
16the Munich Institute of Contemporary History IFZ with the
17reference number FA 213/3 since before 1982.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That does not tell us so much about the provenance though,
19does it?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? What is the matter with it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I mean, normally you would have either a Nuremberg
22document number in the top right hand corner or some
23indication of provenance and it would not contain German
24spelling mistakes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not? Do soldiers not make mistakes when they write,
26or civil servants? Goodness me. We have spotted several

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 1already in the original documents in this case, have we
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you saying that this not an authentic
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Another fake, I think. He does not like it so it
 6is another fake.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am seeing this for the first time, of course, but
 8I noticed straightaway at the bottom line that
 9interestingly it does use the SS runes after the word
10"Muller", which implies that it is a wartime document.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am looking at the wrong document.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it is footnote 143.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. There are two 143s.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, it is a copy.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 295?
16 MR RAMPTON:     That is right, yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is another footnote 143.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry about that. Both Dr Longerich and
19Professor Browning make reference to this.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It may be that I am more picky than they are when I am
21dealing with what looks like a duplicated copy of a
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Never mind. It is a what?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It looks like a duplicated copy of a document, in other
25words on an old fashioned Gestetner duplicator, so to
26speak, but it has the SS runes on it after the name

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 1Muller, which implies, or should be taken to imply, that
 2it is a wartime document rather than a postwar one.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would guess that it is. Why not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     What worries me is the word "verschlussel" in the fifth
 5line, which is neither fish nor fowl in German. It is
 6"verschlussel". It is not "verschlusselt," it is not
 7"verschlusselung". It is a word that does not exist by
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well tell me what it means.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If it was completed it could be to be coded or cyphered,
11encyphered, but it is just, as I said, wrong.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, suppose that there was an N instead of an L,
13would that make a difference?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have to be after the L. It is a strange error,
15I would say that. If it is genuine, then the next thing
16I would point to, of course, is the fact that it has a
17very low classification, just G, secret.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am not asking you about the document.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     All right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When I asked you about this document before, it was ages
21ago, you denied ever having seen it.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Now I am seeing it for the first time, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon. I am on oath and, if I say I am seeing
25this for the first time, then I am seeing it for the first

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you have said many things on oath which
 2I simply do not accept, so we can get past that childish
 3stage of this interrogation.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think this is probably the time to have it out. Where
 5you think I am lying on oath, then you should say so.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is saying so.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am doubting it, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, he is not saying when. He is just alleging in
 9broad terms.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, that is not right. Let me make it
11clear to you.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Will you please wait. I do not do that.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are all talking at once. Mr Rampton, I
14was talking.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. It might be valuable if your Lordship
16reminded Mr Irving of my duty.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am going to. I think it is fair to
18say that every time Mr Rampton is challenging the truth or
19credibility of what you are saying, he has made that clear
20in his questions.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     He is saying that he does not believe ----
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Please wait. If you think that he is not making his case
23clear at any point, then you are entitled to say, what are
24you asking me, Mr Rampton? What are you putting to me?
25But on this particular document, I would like to know
26whether you do or do not challenge its authenticity.

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